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Post by AP Singh on Sept 20, 2006 16:37:05 GMT 5.5
Gujjars,Gujar,Gurjara,Juzr,Ku-chelo « Thread Started on Today at 3:52am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have responded to some people at the website www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13788&PN=13They have created confusion about Gujjars,Gurjars,Juzr,Ku-chelo. The same is being pasted here to inform you since this is also a frequently asked question (FAQ) about Gujjars. To Gurjar.kashtriy very good its shows that how thoughrly you read this thread, its look like you just woke up in morning and jumped on this thread ....... I am not here to ditecte whole thread to you just go through the thread and understand what is going on and who is saying what and who is proving what ........then reply in forum ok give sometime to this thread its seems that its contain 13 page and its take while to understand complex ... then reply in forum dude..(by shouting truth won't change) i already proved that Gurjar and Gujjar diffrent they are not same (on other way its not required to prove that because nowhere is written that both are same sir..its just manupulation from you gujjar's)....now its you guys turn just prove that GURJAR and Gujjar are same please don't copy paste GURJAR things and don't write in end of that "BOTH ARE SAME" just give concreate proof in which book or where its written... BYe Royal parihar |
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 20, 2006 16:38:09 GMT 5.5
Gurjar is a Sanskrit word. In hindi it is pronunciated as Gujar, in Punjabi as Gujjar similar to Delhi is spoken as Dilli in local hindi accent. In Arabic it is Juzr and in chinese Ku-chelo. All are same.
Now if you want to prove that other pratihars than Gujjars are the illegal sons ( Born without a proper wedlock of a Gujjar father and Non gujjar mother) that also can be proved.
For Example in the original National Anthem of India written by Guruwar Shri Rabindranath Tagore the word Gurjar is used and in the Hindi Version of it is replaced by the word gujarata. see the Indian National Anthem as follows.
Jana-gana-mana-adhinayaka, jaya he
Bharata-bhagya-vidhata
Punjab-Sindhu-Gujarata-Maratha-Dravida-Utkala-Banga
Vindhya-Himachala-Yamuna-GangaUjwala-Jaladhi-taranga
Tava shubha name jage Tava shubha ashish maage
Gaye tava jaya-gatha
Jana-gana-mangala-dayaka jaya he
Bharata-bhagya-vidhata
Jaya he, jaya he, jaya he,Jaya jaya jaya, jaya he !
The same Gujjars were called Ku-Che-Lo by a scholar Hiuen Tsang who visted India from China and Juzr by Arab invaders. Hiuen Tsang mentioned in his historical records that about sixty years after the destruction of the Huna supremacy in nortthern India, there arose another Empire at Kanuj under Harshavardan (606 to 647 A.D.), but Rajasthan(29) lay out of his suzerainty. Hiuen Tsang mentions the existence of independent Gurjara (Ku-che-lo) kingdom with Pi-lo-mo-lo, which has been indetified with Bhillamala, modern Bhinamal, as its Capital.
It is as simple as Gurjar Desa became Gurjatra and then Gujrat. Please also note that size of original Gurjar Desa ruled by Gujjars was atleast 10 times bigger than the present Gujarat. It is as simple as Laxman Pur has become Lucknow. It is as simple as Dhillika founded by Gujjar Tanwars has become Delhi.
Also please note that before 1857 the first war of Independences the Western UP was called Mini-Gujarat it was ruled by Gurjars. This is live example and you find even a single Gurjar who is not Gujjar living there.
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 20, 2006 16:39:24 GMT 5.5
Also see another historical record of Dr. Hoernle where Gurjara (Gujar) is mentioned together with Gujar in bracket to show that it is one and the same word used in History for the Imperial Gujjars. Please also note that this version belong to British army where they are clarifying there position against a reseacrh work done by Dr. Hoernle about Imperial gujjars and retained the truth in the classified information ( not to be published at that point of time in their national interest) since britishers were very honest as far as truth is concerned. dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/text.html?objectid=DS405.1.I34_V02_355.gifImperial Gazetteer of India, v. 2, p. 320. Graphics file for this page 320 THE INDIAN EMPIRE 1904, 1905 (mentioned above) for his speculative reconstruction of the earlier history, enriched by great knowledge of the facts. The present paper was unfortunately written before the appearance of Dr. Hoernle's articles. But whatever our theories regarding the infusion of Gujar blood among the Rajputs, there was certainly no Gurjara (GUjar) empire in Northern India in the eighth and ninth centuries A.D. The assumption of imperial titles does not connote the exercise of imperial power; and Dr. Hoernle's Gurjara emperors are merely the kings of Kanauj from Bhoja I downwards, whose power was often very limited, and to whom Dr. Hoernle adds Bhoja's obscure ancestors in Rajputina. |
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 20, 2006 19:09:21 GMT 5.5
Hi Historians,
This is most unfortunate and most insulting to call all the Hindu rulers as rajput before the time of Akbar who has used this term for his military labourers irrespective of their caste and creed. By knowledgable historians they were called Military labourers since they were not fighting for their own country but were in service to fight the people of their own country for the Mughals.
Not only that some of them even accepted derogatory terms with their new overlords like sending their woman to Nauraja Bazar to get favours which is nothing but can be called a form of prostitution. Even after indulding in such a low trade they have courage to writing bad about others.
I have seen these very people writing very much derogatory to India and all other Communities than the Rajputs like some of them shown that Dalits cant enter in to buses even today before rajputs. This is not not true at all and all are treated equal in India today. This is a bad work they are doing for their own country again since a person sitting far from India will form such negative opinion about this great country.
These people learned the tricks to switch over their loyalties at the right opprtunity to new overlords like from Gujjars to Mughals, Mughals to Britishers and hence remained prosperous always even today. Mrs. Indira Gandhi did the right thing to take the privy purses given to these white elephants since she also must have realised the truth.
Please note that we Indians have won all the wars when we were united. The Gujjar army of Mihirbhoja of 36 lakhs soldiers did not have only Gujjars but historical records says that there were many regiments like Kamboja regiment though the best and most trusted fighters were of their own clan like Chauhans,Solankis,Parmars,Guhilas.
If we go the the Chanakya days he made farmers as fighters and Chandra Gupta Mauraya not only defeated Silyukash but married his daughter also. Everyone knows that Chandra Gupta was of low origin, born to a king with his illegal relations to a barber woman. This would not have been possible without the teachings of Chanakya.
With the teachings of Samarth Guru Ramdas Shivaji also made farmers as fighters in his army and was successful to create a new kingdoms against the very powerful opponent, the Mughals. That is the reason people like Sindhias got a chance in the Maratha army. As per historical records the father of Mahadji Sindia used to take care of the shoes of Balaji Rao Peshwa, the brahmin ministers of Maratha kingdom which only a person of low origin can do. I am sorry to write a this term as low origin but this is historical term and I personally believe that every body is equal when born. The same Sindhias brought all these so called petty Rajput rulers of rajastahn to their knees and charged taxes from all of them for his Maratha overlords by shear power and everyone of them obeyed their new overlord the Scindias.
Malhar Rao Holker is another example who was a shepard (Gadaria) by caste from Mathura and settled in a village called Hol near Pune and later called as Holker is History. He was also a great fighter.
Later due to teachings of Guru Govind Singh all the people of India got united under the banner of Sikhism. In Sikhism also the caste system was not followed in the army and that is the reason Ranjeet Singh became the Raja (leader) who was from Sansi caste who even today sell vegetables in Delhi but the same Raja Ranjeet Singh Sansi defeated the kingdoms located in Afghanistan many times but did not settle there as these were very difficult domains to survive. It was not Ranjeet Singh Sansi who defeated these Afghanistan kingdoms but the United India Power which became possible only with the proper teachings of Guru Gobind Singh.
The Gujjars and the Arabs also did not settle permanently in Afghanistan due to these difficult terrains otherwise for both of these kingdoms this was a very small job to oust the Turks.Today also USA could not get Osama Bin Laden in spite of having the best of technology. It was as difficult to get enemy out from these domains without his likings as to take out a snake from his hideout once entered in to it.
The Mongols were not that brave that they defeated many great kingdoms including Arabs but Arabs were not interested in their terrotories in their Powerful days since Afghanistan and Mongolia were difficult terrains even to lead even a normal life.. Similarly nobody could rule India including Gujjars who ruled for more than 300 years, the Mughals who also ruled for more than 100 years since there were many new invaders who were interested to capture these fertile terrotories and always waited for the right time and opprtunities to get into it but certainly no body was interested in Afghanistan, Mongolia or Arab countries at that point of time.
These are some of the reasons why no body could establish permanent kingdoms in India.
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Post by umer449 on Dec 22, 2006 11:20:11 GMT 5.5
gojar gujjar gurjar r same the word gujjar derived from gurj which means brave
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Post by umer449 on Jan 4, 2007 4:52:31 GMT 5.5
umer here
E MAIL sardars449@hotmail.com
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Post by AP Singh on Jun 11, 2007 13:30:47 GMT 5.5
As Posted by me Allempres.com in response to query about Gujjars history.
Mr AP Singh,
I was only informing you abt the jayanti and also requesting you to celebrate it.
I m in lot of confusion why mewari Rulers are not claiming themself as Gujjar instead of Rajput. Why they are so hypocrite in carrying there original name.? . What is wrong with them..
Please shed some light.
Rgds
[/QUOTE]
Mr. Shekhawat,
Though I have found the conclusive records how the history of Gujjar Chauhans and and Gujjar Tanwars has been ascribed to Rajputs who were not legitimate heir to the throne. These reasons also are given below at serial number 1 & 2 of my explanations.
Regarding Guhilots of Mewar I am also surprised to know that the present rulers of Chittor say that they are from Gujjar stock and also call them Rajputs. Earlier I really did not know whether they call themselves as rajputs or not but many historians has written them as rajputs. Also these same Historians in no uncertain language written that they are superior to other Rajputs and that must be because they are part of Imperial Gujjar Heritage. If they call themselves Rajputs the following could be the reasons:-
1. After the sack of Delhi all the legitimate sons were killed and Kutibudian Aibak installed a Gola on the throne of Ajmer. That was the first Rajput rulers of India.
2. After the death of Gujjar Tanwar king his body guards founded a new Tanwars kingdom at Gwalior and were reffered as Rajputs. It was a practice to have Rajputs as personal bodyguards, who were natural sons of the kings but not legitimate to rule.
3. There were lost generations of Gujjar Guhilas after Allat was put the death by Munja Parmar and Guhilas were expelled from Chittor. I have read the following to conclude that after the lost generations of Chittor it were Gujjars Guhilots who ruled Chittor.
#1The Guhilots were again installed on the throne and made vassals of Gujjar Solanki dynasty of Patan during the rule of Gujjar Solanki Sid Rae Jai Singh.
#2. I have read Babar Nama to find the truth and did not find even at a single place the word Rajput.
#3. God Dev Narayan, born in a chauhan family has devoted his life to unite all the Gujjar gotras like Pratihars, Parmars, Solankis,Chauhans etc. who were fighting among themselves after the fall of Gujjar pratihar Empire is worshipped among all the Gujjars arrespective of their gotra. Guhilas were not in race that time since they insignificant and hence I have not mentioned here.
Rana Sanga used to worship God Dev Narayan to sanctify his armmours before going to any war. Among Hindus we worship our ancestors and you will not find even a single Rathor or Kushwaha to worship God Dev Narayan since they from different stock than Gujjars. The same practice is still very populars among all gotras of Gujjars to pay respect to their ancestors by visiting the small temples called Devra made in the name of their great ancesotors.
#4. The Gujjars are called as the biggest enemies of Islam. This fact can be found in many Muslim records. The Indian Historians also agree on this point the it was Gujjars who did not allow the Muslim invaders to enter India for 300 years.
Till the time of Babar, though there were so many dynasties of Muslim rulers which were established in India but they were not in absolute control of entire India. It was the first time during Mughal rule that Muslim rulers were in absolute control of entire India. That was also the most opportune time for them to hit their biggest enemy, which they precisely did the same. That time many Gujjars started calling themselves and Khatris in Punjab and rajputs in Rajasthan. Many others were converted to Islam.
That is the reason Khatris also share many surnames with Gujjars like Kohli, Chopra,Bhatia etc. The Gujrals are the Chadellas Gujjars who ruled from Kalinjar and their place in the court Imerial Gujjar Pratihar was that of Chauhans. The Chandellas remained loyal to gujjar Pratihars till end and that was the reason they were first to loose their kingdoms to Muslims.
Gujjars could not get united as they were already divided among various dynasties and were scattered from Karnataka to afghanistan and they are still fount in these areas in large numbers.
Probably that was time when Guhilas of Chittor also started calling themselves as Rajputs and joined other rajputs to Serve the Mughals. That must be the resaon for your confusion and even for all the historians who from Gujjar stock but not Gujjars.
The BarGujjars ( The Gujjars from Bara) of Alwars also changed that time their name from Gujjars to Rajputs to hide their identity.
I am not a historian and the purpose of my study is to find our natural genetic brothers and not spread any kind of hatred.
My purpose is not to get glorified by relating the Gujjars to Rana Pratap. What kind of glorifications the Gujjars can have to relate with Rana Pratap whose army was not even 3000 and was ruling a very small part of country when there are already many books written about Gujjars by reknowned historians like KM Munshi "The Glory that Gurjar Desa". The Gujjar Empire for three hundred years was from Kabul to Dhaka to Karnataka and the size of army was 80 lakhs and we are direct descendents of Nagabhatta the Great and Samrat Mihir Bhoja Mahan then what kind of glory the Gujjars can add by falsely adding Rana Pratap as one among them.
It is other way true that Guhilots feels great to relate them with Imperial Gujjars and that is the reason that they have mentioned on their official website that they are from Gujjar stock.
One thing is sure that the first ruler of Guhila dynasty at Chittor, Bappa Rawal was a Gujjar who was Vassal of third rank of Gujjar Emperor NagaBhatta the Great and was given Chittor to rule on their behalf under their fuedatories of second rank, the Gujjar Parmars of Ujjain. This relationship between them ended by Munja Parmar by putting Allat to death and the Chittor was taken from the Guhilas.
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Post by Guest on Jan 22, 2008 12:32:17 GMT 5.5
Gujjars were the highest tribe among all hindu castes till 16th. century. They were also spoken as Aljuzarias (wtitten Subkufria in the following text in KITÁBU-L MASÁLIK WA-L MAMÁLIK OF IBN KHURDADBA. Reference site: persian.packhum.org/persian/mainThere are seven classes of Hindus, viz., 1st, Sábkufría,* among whom are men of high caste, and from among whom kings are chosen. The people of the other six classes do the men of this class homage, and them only. 2nd, Brahma, who totally abstain from wine and fermented liquors. 3rd, Kataría, who drink not more than three cups of wine; the daughters of the class of Brahma are not given in marriage to the sons of this class, but the Brahmas take their daughters. 4th, Súdariá, who are by profession husbandmen. The 5th, Baisurá, are artificers and domestics. The 6th, Sandália, who perform menial offices. 7th, Lahúd;* their women are fond of adorning themselves, and the men are fond of amusements and games of skill.* In Hind there are forty-two religious sects;* part of them believe in a Creator and Prophet (the blessing of God be upon them!); part deny the mission of a Prophet, and part are atheists. |
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Post by AP Singh on Apr 19, 2008 15:20:52 GMT 5.5
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000
Originally posted by AP Singh
They persians were not fools for not doing so since India was much more powerful than them at the time under the Gujjar Pratihar Emperors and in case of attack India the Persian Empire would have been lost to Gujjar Pratihar Emperors. This question should be asked in a reverse manner that why the Gujjar Pratihars Emperors of India even after having an army size of 80 Lakhs did not conquer Persia? It is because there was nothing to invade, in Persia that time since the horses and elephants used by the armies, could not be fed on petrol and diesel.
Hypothetically it is true that in present circumstances the Gujjar Pratihar Emperors would have conquered Persia to take control on vast reserve of oil in that region but the people are more civilised now.
It was Gujjar Power which defended India from 6th. century to 10th. century and it was possible the enter India from Arab side after the various fuedatories like Gujjar Tanwars of Delhi, Gujjar Chauhans of Sakambri, Gujjar Chandellas of Kalinjar,Gujjar Solankis of Patan, Gujjar Parmars of Dhar asserted independence from the Gujjar Pratihar empire and started fighting among themselves to gain supremacy over each other. Taking the advantage of the situation the other non Gujjar fuedatories like Kalchuris, and vassals like Rathors Kachwahs also formed their own state. At this point of time also it was not Persian empire which got hold in India but the Turks like Gaznavi and Ghori from Afghnistan. Since that part of afghanistan from where Gaznavi and Ghori belonged, was ruled by Gujjar Emperors, it can not be said that India was conquered but the right word will be that it was divided. These Turks were earlier Hindus only and the only difference between them and other Hindus were that these Afghans were converted to Muslim at earlier than other population.
Later India was conquered by Babar who was from present day Uzbekistan. That time also it were the Pathans who were among the most powerful ruler of India. They kept fighting among themselves and India was in fact offered to Babar. Later Sher Shah Suri expelled his Humayun from India and established Indian Empire again.
It was akbar who was the first alien ruler of India.
I think there were no Gujjars in 500 B.C. The time frame about which we are talking about about.
And Turks were never Hindus, niether were they the natives of Afghanistan.
The Gujjar Kushans were rulers of India that time and the Persian Empire was much weaker than them.
Kushan is a branch of Gujjars and now days are called Kasana (with variations like Kansana, Kushana, Kasana etc).
Some of the famous Kasana Gujjars of the present era are Ex- President of India Late Shri Fakhrudin Ali Ahmed, Ex- MP of India Mrs. Rama Pilot ( Wife of late Shri Rajesh Pilot, Ex- Home Minister of India), Mr. Shoaib Akhtar ( Pakistani Cricketer setting the world record twice by achieving the speed of 160 miles per hours in two different
Cricket World Cups), Business Tycoon from Japan Mr. Dinesh Kasana ( having his Own Industries in Japan ,China and chain of Restaurants in USA) etc. etc.
Also the majority of Gujjars found in presently in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan and Afghanistan are Gujjars of Kasana Gotra which confirms that Gujjar does not leave
their place of birth except when on conquering new areas or their services are required by their motherland.
The Gujjars are called in History by different names in Different languages. The are called Kuchelo in chinese, Gurjara in Sanskrit, Gujjar, Gujar in Hindi, Guzar in Urdu and Al-Juzr, Juzr, Jurz in Persian and Arabic etc. etc.
In Persian the Gurjaras are also written as Juzaria and thus Georgia ( also written as Jurjistan in many historical records) is named after Gujjar tribe, which also confirms the boundry of Gujjar Empire in that direction during the period of Gujjar Kushan Dynasty.
Also there are places in present day Uzbekistan named after the Gujjar tribe like Kasan and Guzar.
It is said that Gujjars in India came from Georgia but that is not true. The Gujjars went from India and conquered those territories. At the time of attack and defeats at the Hands of Huns the Gujjars of Georgia and India were separated from each others.
In Georgia, the Gujjars must have embraced Christian religion and lost their identity as Gujjars. The Christian religion started spreading in Georgia in the first century and we dont find even a single Christian Gujjar in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
The Huns at later stage were defeated in India by another Gujjar empire called Gujjar Pratihars. It was Bahuk Dhawal of Gujjar Solanki clan, a fuedatory of Gujjar Pratihar Emperor " Mihir Bhoja the Great" who defeated Huns and Huns were later assimilated among Gujjars. It was a practice that time to assimilate the clans having equal status among equals and presently the Huns are a celebareted Gotra of Gujjars.
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Post by yatin on Nov 6, 2008 19:04:21 GMT 5.5
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