Gurjar Directory(Gotras)

[Gurjar poswal]

Thank you Ashok and Ap Singh ji for replying back to my post.

I am a bit confused now, brother Ashok are you saying that posawl gotra is not from Gurjars, or king porus is not a Gurjar.

Second thing I find very interesting but strange is that you say that Hercules is in fact Sri Krishna’s brother balrama. But according to Greek mythology Hercules is the son of Zeus. Please can u elaborate on this topic a bit further preferably with authentic proof so I can tell other about this

Thank you both ever so much.

[Ashok Harsana]

Hercules and Balrama were identical: its just a matter under research there is no authentic proof as such. We can discuss that her but that will deviate us from the core topic. You can search balrama and Hercules on google to know more.

Regarding your gotra: I never said Poswals are not Gujjars they are pure gujjars and were present in the time of Baba Devnarayana Chauhan (10th century AD). Porus was most probabaly from Yadu kul and we know that actually yaduvanshis are either yaudheyas (johiyas found in jats ad gujjars) or ahirs (found in yadavs and Gujjars).

So nothing is clear and most of the historians (90%) agrre upon the point that the King Purush was a soor saini (sainis, a caste separated from yadavas, they were worshiping sun god and hence called sursaini).

Regards

[Ashok Harsana]

Jan 19, 2010 12:08:13 GMT 5.5 @AP Singh said:

Here I would also like to mention that possibility of the Vezier or Vazir tribe in Pakistan and Afghanistan being the Gujjars of Varajjara ( Bajjad) Gotra and the Abdalis ( named after Hepthalites or Hepthali) may be from Hun ( Hephthalites) Gotra of Gujjars can not be ruled out. They must have been isolated after the fall of Gujjar Kushan Empire. Only a few years ago I was not even aware that there is sizable population of Gujjars in present day Pakistan and Afghainstan and today internet made it possible to be in touch with each others. So it is very much likely that these two tribes and many others similar tribes of Central Asia are actually the Gujjar clan and were completely isolated from the Gujjars associated with Gujjar Pratihars having total ignorance of their common origin.

Abdalis claim to be the descendants of Hepthals.

Gujjars residing in pakistani punjab in 2nd century BC said that they have dhai (2 and half gotra) Kasana, gorsi and Begrat. The word Bagrat is now simplified to Bargat these days. It can be the origin of the Bagri clan. There had been a dynasty in Georgia called Bagratids or simply called Bagrat. There might be a connection and the clan Bagrat might be of very much importance. (Specially when we realise (after reading the Kusa article in wiki) that Kusans (and eventually Khatanas) , Gorsi and chechis are factually just another name for the caste name Gurjar. Bagrate were included as half gotra as they were not considered pure (might be from a non gujar mother). It needs a lot of research. We can solve the puzzle of yuchi-kusan-hepthal tribes.

Regards

[AP Singh]

[quote

Abdalis claim to be the descendants of Hepthals.

Bagrate were included as half gotra as they were not considered pure (might be from a non gujar mother). It needs a lot of research. We can solve the puzzle of yuchi-kusan-hepthal tribes.

Regards[/quote]
Hepthal or Hepthalites are another name of white Huns which is also written as Haotun is chinese literature. These different names of the same clan of Gujjars is because the capital of Gujjars was present day Peshawar and considerable large part of their empire were situated on both side of sSlk Road. Gujjar Empire was the link between East and West and many cultures were living like Indian ( including The Gujjar Kasana themselves) and Persians.

It is completely wrong that Bargat is a half Gotra. If that had been the case it would have beern a separate caste today than the Gujjars and not a Gujar Gotra. If you read carefully the marraige customs followed during Gujjar Kushana Empire, there was not a single case of intercaste marraige was reported. However there were cases of marriages between poor and riches of the same caste or community. You may go through the "Ancient History of India by Mr. Mahajan" for further reading and confirmation of the facts.It is possible that Gorsi may be another pronunciation Gurz or Gujer and similar is the case of of Dorje who were the rulers of Bhutan and Tibet. Also Dorje is a very popular name among Tibetans and Bhutanese Dorje must be our closed cousins in that case. This fact is also supported by the epigraphic evidence found from Khotan, the Capital city of Gujjar Khatana that Gujjar Emperor ( Rajatiraja, means King of Kings, and that is Emperor) married the chinese princes and it is possible Dorje could be a branch of the rulers born from these kind of marriages. However nothing can be said till the fact is supported by any epigraphic evidence available.

[gurjar poswal]

Hi Ashok and Ap singh ji

Thanks for your earlier post, a quick question is there any Actual proof that Yuezhi are Gurjars.
History is showing them as Chinese or Tibetans or some other race. So why are gurjars claiming them?
Again is there any solid proof for this claim meaning did the Yuezhi or kushan ever claim they were Gurjars.

I understand that Kushan or kasana is a gotra from the Gurjar caste, but this isn’t sufficient proof because one can say that Gurjar adopted this gotra after the Kushan Empire, and not that it was there before, meaning Kushan’s are from Gurjars.

Again is there any evidence for this claim that Yuezhi or Kushan are Gurjars.
We can clearly see that Gurjara-Pratihara were gurjars they named places and coins after their caste and even their Empire was named Gurjara but we do not see this with Yuezhi or Kushans or DO WE?.

Thank you.

[Ashok Harsana]

Unfortunately a very important post regarding the "bhosle family: origin and migration" was deleted from this forum by mistake.

This post was posted by our senior most member respected AP Singh Ji, who has been the most active and contributing author on our forum. Due to the knowledge and contribution of Shri AP Singh ji, we all pay him high respect and require continuous knowledge from his precious writings.
Gurjar samaj is deeply sorry for the non-deliberate deletion of the post. The worst thing is that we can not retrieve that post as Shri AP Singh ji is not writing as a registered member and any post by a guest can not be modified (by the guest himself) and can not be retrieved if once deleted. A member can modify his posts and can also add pics, Maps etc.

Apart from that Proboards is the best platform and time tested Board to run a discussion forum and most of the community websites are using it as their forum. Its secured and no body can temper the Boards except of the Moderator.

I hereby request AP Singh ji to join this forum as a moderator and Staff member. So that we can be comfortable in handling the valuable posts by any guest or member.

Regretting Heatedly again,

Gurjar Samaj Forum
Ashok Harsana (Admn)

[AP Singh]

Jan 20, 2010 20:22:58 GMT 5.5 @gurjar poswal said:

Hi Ashok and Ap singh ji

Thanks for your earlier post, a quick question is there any Actual proof that Yuezhi are Gurjars.
History is showing them as Chinese or Tibetans or some other race. So why are gurjars claiming them?
Again is there any solid proof for this claim meaning did the Yuezhi or kushan ever claim they were Gurjars.

I understand that Kushan or kasana is a gotra from the Gurjar caste, but this isn’t sufficient proof because one can say that Gurjar adopted this gotra after the Kushan Empire, and not that it was there before, meaning Kushan’s are from Gurjars.

Again is there any evidence for this claim that Yuezhi or Kushan are Gurjars.
We can clearly see that Gurjara-Pratihara were gurjars they named places and coins after their caste and even their Empire was named Gurjara but we do not see this with Yuezhi or Kushans or DO WE?.

Thank you.

Origin of Gujjars:

Three main theories of Gujjars Origin are suggested by the various noted historians. The Theory given by General Cunninghum meets all the parameters to be very very true. Others lacks logic but partially are true. I have further given many epigraphic evidences about the other Gujjar Gotras like, Bokkan, khalsian, Karhana, Khatana, kapisia,Nagra, Varajjara ( Bajjad) or ever Parihara
( the famous Gurjara Pratihars), Chechis etc in many of my postings alongwith the places they ruled in Central Asia and present day Afghanistan along with the historical Importance of the places with respect to the their Gujjar rulers in Gujjar Kushana Era. Moreover Sir, MA Stein believed that Kanishka, the Great Gujjars Kushana was not from from Kasana Gotra but of Khatana Gotra. Both Kasana and Khatana are the ancient Gotra of Gujjars and many other gotras are descended from these two Gotras.

The first theory is believed by many without going in to details about clan ( Gotra) System followed among Gujjars. If Gujjars came alongwith the Huns, in that case Gujjar would have been a Gotra of Huns and not vice-versa. Also Gujarat would have been Hunrat. The fact is Huns were one of main five princes of the main Gujjar (Yuechi) tribe and in 5th. century the left over group of Hun Gujjars entered India, which was confused by as the migration of Gujjars.

All the tree theories are correct. The theory given by General Cunninnghum meets all the parameters completely to be true. The other two theories are partially correct like Gujjars are not from Georgia but Georgia was the outer boundry of Gujjar Kushans in Central Asia. Gujarat was the outer boundry in present day Gujarat ( including Maharashtra and part of Karnataka) in India. Gujjars are not from Chechanya but Chechanya was the integral part of Gujjar Kushana Empire ruled by great Gujjar clan of Chechis. Cherchan was their original capital in present day Chinese Turkestan.


The Three theories about the origin of Gujjars are as follows:

1. The Gujjar clan appeared in northern India about the time of the Huna invasions of northern India. Some scholars, such as V. A. Smith, believed that the Gujjars were foreign immigrants, possibly a branch of Hephthalites. D. B. Bhandarkar (1875-1950) believed that Gujjars came into India with the Hunas, and the name was sanskritized to Gurjara. He also believed that several places in Central Asia, such as "Gurjistan", are named after the Gujars and that the reminiscences of Gujar migration is preserved in these names.

2. General Cunningham identified the Gujjars with Yuezhi or Tocharians. General Cunningham and A. H. Bingley consider the Gujjars as descendants of Kushan/Yueh-chi or Tocharians of Indo-Scythian stock.

3. Some others claim that the Gujjar caste is related to the Chechens and the Georgians, and argue that Georgia was traditionally called Gujaristanactually Gorjestan).

[AP Singh]

[quote 2. General Cunningham identified the Gujjars with Yuezhi or Tocharians. General Cunningham and A. H. Bingley consider the Gujjars as descendants of Kushan/Yueh-chi or Tocharians of Indo-Scythian stock. [/quote]

Here I would clarify that Shakas ( Scythians) were different than Gujjars ( Da Yuechis). The Gujjars defeated Shakas and made them vassals of Gujjar Kasana Empire and Kshatraps and Mahakshatrap.
Therse Kshatraps and Mahakshatrap were not regarding as equals to Gujjars and two catagories of Khastriyas were created. One was placed above the Brahmins, i,e,. the Gurjaras and the other was placed lower than Brahmins i,e,. the Shakas and others vassals of Gujjar Kushans. This tradition continued till 14th. century and I have already given historical recordings of Persian scholars of 9th. and 10th. century about regarding this fact in my various eralier postings.

[gurjar poswal]

Ap Singh Ji

Thank you ever so much for your very informative reply.

There is also another theory or some may say fact, I personally agree with the latter.
That Gurjars are not foreigners but are in fact decedents of sri ram chandar.
As proven in “A short history of the Gurjars” by Rana Ali Hasan Chouhan, and many other books.

Ap Singh Ji you still haven’t answered my question Yet. Which is did Yuezhi or Kanishak ever call them self Gurjar?

Plus where do we get the name Gurjar Kushan Empire, because on the internet it’s called Kushan Empire.

Thank you.

[AP Singh]

Jan 22, 2010 19:28:16 GMT 5.5 @gurjar poswal said:

Ap Singh Ji

Thank you ever so much for your very informative reply.

There is also another theory or some may say fact, I personally agree with the latter.
That Gurjars are not foreigners but are in fact decedents of sri ram chandar.
As proven in “A short history of the Gurjars” by Rana Ali Hasan Chouhan, and many other books.

Ap Singh Ji you still haven’t answered my question Yet. Which is did Yuezhi or Kanishak ever call them self Gurjar?

Plus where do we get the name Gurjar Kushan Empire, because on the internet it’s called Kushan Empire.

Thank you.

The Gujjars are not foreigners but the Gujjars ruled over most of central Asia which are foreign territories today. Even Khotan, the capital of khatana Gujjars in presently located in China and is called Hetian. Even Mount Kailash is not situated in present day India.

The Gujjars Kushans did not specifically called them Gujjars since all of their fuedatory kings were also Gujjars. The other Vassals were called Khastarap and Mahakhstraps. It goes like this- I have not seen in any Gujjar marriage asking people with each other that are you Gujjar? It is obvious that every body is a Gujjar there since in arranged marriages even today the Gujjar dont marry with other communities. I have seen people asking with each other in such marriages like what is the gotra ( sub clan of Gujjars) of maternal uncle of bride or bride groom. it make sense since everybody is supossed to ba Gujjar there.

Even in Gujjar Pratihars inscriptions there is no such records calling Pratihar as Gujjars. Jai Bhatta the Kotpal Of Gwalior inscription is called as Nagara ( Present day Nagar Gotra of Gujjars) of Varajjara ( present day Bajjad gotra of Gujjars) family. he was not written as Gujjars since it is obvious that he was Nagara of Varajjara family of Gujjars. It also clarify that Jaibhatta was from the same family Gujjars to which Samrat Mihir Bhoja belonged.
It is actually one of the junior branch of the Imperial Gujjar Pratihars, the ruler of Alwar, Mathandeva, called himself as Gujjar Pratihar, claiming himself from the same branch of Pratihars to which Imperial Gujjars of kannauj belonged.

Fortunately it were others who called Pratihars as Gujjars like the Arab adversaries of them, the scholars, Pampa a Kanarese poet etc.. It is these records which later became conclusive proof of Imperial Pratihars to be Gujjars, otherwise this history of Gujjars laso was almost stolen and would have been given to others.
Similarly the Kushans are reffered as Yuechis ( Gurz or Guzr) in chinese records. In Arab history record files also the Gujjars are reffered as Jurz, Al-Jurz or Juzr. Huen-tsang called Gujjars as Ku-che-lo. It is because in India the Gujjars were called Gurjaras ( Gurz+Raja) and lo is added to Yuechi or Kuche for additinal word for Raja.
I have already written in my earlier posts the Czar is the equivalent word of Gurjara used in Central Asia which means the same as Gurjara i,e,. Gurz Raja.