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Post by Ashok Harsana on Mar 7, 2010 0:00:07 GMT 5.5
AP Singh Ji,
We need to be honest and not rigid if we want to know the true history. Gujjars were kings and they have been the most loyal and brave tribe of the subcontinent for sure.
BUT, there were a few sections of gujjars which were poor and used to serve other rich castes. Its a fact about history that whichever caste rose to power was served and praised by all other castes of the region. When Rajputs rose to power during moghal era, Gujjars didnt leave the region they were staying earlier (for intance Rajputana here), but they also tried to get close the Rajputs (and its a strange thing but a few sections of Gujjars even tried to connect themselves to Rajputs).
Even when most of the Indian subcontinent was under the sway of Gujjars a few sections of Gujjars were bowing before the Rashtrakutas in lata and southern area.
A few supported Moghals, Babur and Ghori also. I cant say that they supported britishers as I know none of the Gujjars were illoyal to the motherland.
So there is nothing we should argue about here, No caste or community can behave in a 100% certain manner and they are not expected to follow a same practice or lifestyle.
Even today you may find all classes and qualities in Gujjars... they are rich and poor, honest and frauds, fair and dark, tall and short and so on....
You may find Rajputs ruling princely states and Gujjars saluting them and vice versa. And u may also find poor rajput woman working as maids in a rich gujjar family in delhi and a poor gujjar woking as a labour in a Thakur zamindar's farms.
So... We should admit and realise this very fact honestly that a few sections of Gujjars were serving Rajput families and due to the fabulous history of Gujjars, Rajputs were pleased to accept their services and providing them a special place.
I m not forcing to prove here that Panna dhay was a gujjri but this was the first thing I knew about her since my childhood. I can support this very fact with a lot of evidence but there is no use as I have tried to tell u the clear piture of society in medieval times of India.
And Gayatri Devi was a Gujari for sure.
And in my opinion Dhabhai gotra has no other explanation as said by Satyendra ji.
Best Regards
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Post by AP Singh on Mar 8, 2010 12:13:29 GMT 5.5
AP Singh Ji, We need to be honest and not rigid if we want to know the true history. Gujjars were kings and they have been the most loyal and brave tribe of the subcontinent for sure. Best Regards Harshanajee, I am honest and to be honest take lot of pain to seach for right information. You should realise that there was a conspiracy during slavery period of the country ( i,e,. Mughal and British period) specially by the neo-rich communities prospered in that period against Gujjars to malign them. The Gujjars never provided their females to breast feed the children of others. There is a saying in Ajmer only that asli Rajput woh jisne Gujjari ya Nahari ( Lioness or Sherni) ka doodh piya ho. Nowhere else that saying other than Ajmer is popular. You are aware that Prihviraj Raj Chauhan was the last Gujjar Chauhan king of Ajmer. After the death of the last Gujjar Chauhan king his illegitimate son ( Gola) was made Governor of Ajmer by Kutubdin Aibak ( Aibak was a slave of Ghori). Hariraj the real brother of the last Gujjar king expelled that Gola (illegitimate son) from Ajmer. Later Hariraj was defeated by Kutubdin Aibak again and Hariraj could digest this insulting defeat and entered in to a burning pyre. This Gola of Ajmer was later made the Governor of Ranthambor and Ajmer was forever taken by the Muslim invaders. It may be that at this point of time when some other natural sons of Gujjar Chauhan Kings not having any right to the throne must have asserted these stories (to prove their superiority over other natural sons who sided with the Muslims) that they are as pure and as brave as Gujjars by virtue of having breast fed by Gujjar Mothers or Nahari ( Lioness or Sherni).Second example is the case Mrignayini of Gwalior. See Gwalior was never ruled by the Rajputs except a short duration they were ( Kushawaha Rajputs) were made Governors by Gujjar Chandella. Later Gwalior was taken over by of Gujjar Sardar of Padihar ( Pratihar) Gotra who was married among Gujjar Tanwars. It was the family of this Tanwar family who ruled later at Gwalior. Mrignayini was Gujjar Chandella Gotra and belong to the family of overlods of the vassals of the Gwalior. In history Man Singh is shown as a Noj Gujjar. Third example is Gujjar Wali of Udai Pur, Rawal Udai Singh Nagari, where Nagari word is removed from Indian version of translation of Babar Nama. Fourth example is recent and a rumor which was was spread during the election that wife of former Jat MP of Bharat Pur is from Gujjar tribe. Panna Dhai is another example of the same conspiracy. The fact is Panna Dhai was Kheechi Rajput. Among Rajputs Kheechi writes the title as Chauhan. Hence these Gujjar Chauhans can not be from the family of Panna Dhai. Among Gujjars, Chechis never write the Chauhan surname since Chauhan is a smaller branch of Gujjar Chechis. Please note that it is not a Panchayat and you can not force your opinion on others without concrete epigraphical evidences and the same is awaited from your side. |
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Post by satyendra on Mar 8, 2010 19:24:52 GMT 5.5
Gotra / surname like Bhati, Chauhan, Tanwar, Panwar, Chandela, Pratihar were amongst the most royal gotras among Gujars....! As per my understanding, gotra like Bhati, Chauhan, Tanwar, Panwar, Chandela, Parihar...etc are the most oldest gotra of Rajputs (in contrast to Rathore, Sisodiya, Kachchvaha, Shaktawat, Shekhawat etc which are quiet new) and there appears to be no dispute that Rajputs are a new / young term/ nomenclature / community / caste in coparision to Gujars ......! So by simple logic it can be presumed that there is some continuation of blood lines between ancient Gujars and Rajputs ....whether you like it or not......! Further origin of gotra / surnames like "hoon" & "kasana" among Gujars can only be explained if we assume that at some point of time there must be some mixing of blood between barbaric tribes like Hoon/ Kushan and Gujars......! The Hoon / Kushan and Gujar were all of different types in every manner but presence of Hoon and Kasana gotra among Gujars confirm this hypothesis....! It appars that in the following link which was not accessible in full , the similar topics have been covered : (Some Problems of Ancient Indian History. No. III: The Gurjara Clans (Concluded from p. 662, October, 1904) A. F. Rudolf Hoernle The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, (Jan., 1905), pp. 1-32 (article consists of 32 pages) Published by: Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland Stable URL: www.jstor.org/stable/25208724 |
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Mar 8, 2010 22:32:46 GMT 5.5
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Post by AP Singh on Mar 9, 2010 12:48:37 GMT 5.5
Satyendra ji..two points can be decuced from ur post: [ Rajputs are not a caste (not even today). They are the mixture of the illegitimate children of Kings, ruled during medieval times (10th to 16th centuries). Rajput were recognised as a caste in as late as 16th century and beofre that they were looked down by other castes and tribes due to their illegitimacy. In certain parts of Rajasthan rajputs are still looked down and no one likes to be called a Rajput. [/quote I think Mr. Satyendra is reading the fiction stories written by Col Todd.
Col Todd. was certainly suffering suffering from selective blindness. He has reffered Ferriasta many times in his stories but failed to read the origin of a great group of India, who made a formidable part of Mughal Hindoo vassals. See where col. Todd went blind in reading Ferrista:-
The History of the Rise of Mohammedan Power in India, Volume 1, chpt. 8
The rajas, not satisfied with their married wives, had frequently children by their female slaves, who, although not legitimate successors to the throne, were styled Rajpoots, or the children of the rajas, and the children of Raja Sooruj, whose history we shall now relate, were the first to whom the name of rajpoot was given. |
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Post by satyendra on Mar 9, 2010 21:58:03 GMT 5.5
.....continued from Rajput as new caste...(a missing link after down fall of ancient royal clans of Gujars as a result of struggle of power and other external factors): How can we explain presence of bargujar, hoon, chawra, Jat, Chauhan, Tanwar....etc as 36 royal clans of Rajputs.....  How the golden era of Gurjar pratihar and the Gurjar kings was transformed and occupied suddenly by new surnames without any background of their origin...... |
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Mar 9, 2010 22:45:03 GMT 5.5
Surname simply means the last name of father....so they used the last name of their fathers..but that doesn't tell anything about their maternal side. Did u get the point? The story of 36 clans was made famous by Kumarpal Charita written by Hemachandra suri during 12th century. (written over Kumarpal Solanki of Gujarat). This was the list of official 36 kshatriya clans (many tribes achieved and claimed kshatriya status till 12th century AD). Later the same 36 clans were mentioned in PrtithviRaj Raso written by Chand Bardai in the end of 12th century AD. These 36 clans has nothing to do with the Rajputs. I told u in my last post how Brahmins, Gonds and Bheels along-with other aboriginal tribes achieved Rajput status during last 500 years. This list was the total of those 36 kshatriya clans (and not Rajput clans) which distinguished themselves as renowned warriors until 12th century AD. This list was tempered many times after that. Many clans were removed and a lot were added to it. Thats why we find serious differences between 36 royal clans of kshatriyas. But one thing is very important by the point of view of the Rajputs. They claimed these 36 clans are related to Rajput caste and hence claiming all the kshatriya varna to their side. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithviraj_Rasoit says: Prithviraj Raso is a source of information on the social and clan structure of the Kshattriya communities of northern India. The original versions of Kumarpal Charita and Prithviraj Raso don't speak about Rajputs at all, but later (in 17th century AD) it was manipulated and the Mount Abu fire pit story (origin of Agnivanshi Rajputs) was inserted to it. before 17th century this story was ascribed to only Parmars of Dhar nagri.But there might be a possibility that all of these 36 clans of kshtriyas were responsible for the birth of Rajputs as it was a very common practice among Kings (read kshtriya here) to keep concubines. There you find the simple and logical explanation of the presence of all 36 royal kshatirya clans among Rajputs. |
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Post by AP Singh on Mar 10, 2010 10:45:33 GMT 5.5
.....continued from Rajput as new caste...(a missing link after down fall of ancient royal clans of Gujars as a result of struggle of power and other external factors): How can we explain presence of bargujar, hoon, chawra, Jat, Chauhan, Tanwar....etc as 36 royal clans of Rajputs..... How the golden era of Gurjar pratihar and the Gurjar kings was transformed and occupied suddenly by new surnames without any background of their origin......
1. After the fall of Gujjar Pratihar Empire at Kannauj, a Rashtrakuta Governor was installed by Gaznavi. His descendents from one his duaghter and father of unknown tribe were Gaharwals, who became independent after Gaznavids were defeated by the Ghoris. This also could be the reason of freindship between Gujjars Chauhans and Ghori since Beesil Dev Chauhan from Ajmer was extending his Gujjar Empire till Lahore and thus gaining new area of lost Empire of his Great ancestors.
2. After the fall of Ajmer from Gujjar Chauhans the Aiabak ( a slave of Ghori who was made Governor of India by the Ghurids made one Gola ( Illegitimate son of Gujjar Chauhans) a Governor of Ranthabmore. This dynasty was not a Gujjar Dynasty and was given a new name.
3. After the fall of Chittor, Allauddin Khilji installed Maldev Songadha Rajput as Governor of Chittor.
All these Governors found good opportunities when their Muslim overlords became weak and enjoyed considerable freedom later but everytime surrendered to the new emerging Muslim rulers. For example Udai Singh, son of Rana Sanga surrendered the keys of Chittor fort to Sher Shah suri and not only found asylum in Udai Pur ( Nagada) ruled by Gujjar of Nagari Gotra. Later his descendents captured these territories since all the Gujjar Warriors under Udai Singh Nagari, advanced to Khanwa to take battle with Babar and sacrificed their lives.Largely all new hindoo rulers of eralier Gujjar territories were appointed as Governors. In fact they all the time during slavery period remained as Governors only ( called Mansabdars under Mughals) and took self appointed titles like Rajas and Maharaja during British period. Technically they were all naukars of the foregn rulers appointed to to abuse their people and motherland. They can not be called raja (leave aside Maharaja) since they all were naukkars of foreign rulers during slavery period of the country. |
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Post by satyendra on Mar 10, 2010 21:20:53 GMT 5.5
I recently accessed "Annals & Antiquities of Rajputana" (after getting comments from the learned viewers of this forum) by Col Tod, I found that at some place Col Tod has mentioned special devine connection between Rajput kings of Chittor (read Rana Sanga) and Gujar God Devnarayan particularly during war .........again Col Tod mentions some connection between Chauhan gotra / clan and "Char bhuja ka mandir"......this temple is under 100% control of Gujar priests for centuries........! In my earlier submission I referred "SOME PROBLEMS OF ANCIENT INDIAN HISTORY,No. II, III: THE GURJARA EMPIRE.' and GURJARA CLAN By A. F. RUDOLF HOERNLE, PH.D., C.I.E. " wherein places like Chittor, Gwalior and particularly Rajputana was referred as Gujar strong hold and as their original place from where they expanded.....! Col Tod at some places (like Dausa, Alwar)mentions presence of Bar Gujar kings during his visit / tour and even he goes saying that some Dhulerai (perhaps the first kachchvaha king of Jaipur) maried Gujar princess of near by thikana.......! As per the text provided in Royal Asiatic Library (referred above): The history of the Gurjara empire after Trilochanapala is* still very obscure. For myself, I am disposed to adopt Sir A. Cunningham's theory that the Kanauj imperial family retired to Delhi (A.S. Reports, i, 132 ff.). Kanauj, as we know from the Gaharwar charters (Ind. Ant., xviii, 13), was captured about 1050 A.D. by Chandradeva, the founder of the Gaharwar dynasty. As a result of the Gaharwar conquest, the reigning emperor appears to have retired to his north-western frontier province, to which henceforth the rule of his family, now known as the Tomara, was limited. This emperor was Anangapala, apparently a son of Trilochanapala. He may have reigned from 1040 to 1060 A.U. He seems to have retired to his stronghold on the Jamna, called Lalkot or the Red Fort. This happened, as recorded on the Iron Pillar (ibid., pp. 151, 174; Journ. K.A.S., 1897, p. 13) in 1052 A.D. Around Lalkot there sprang up the new royal residence of Delhi, about 1060 A.D. In their greatly reduced dominions the royal family continued to reign for about a century longer, till at last in 1170 A.D. the succession passed to the Chohan chief Prithiraj, the son-inlaw of the last Tomara king, Anangapala II, who had no male issue. Prithiraj, of course, considered himself as succeeding to the old imperial claims of his wife's family, claims which apparently had never been formally renounced. This fact explains Prithiraj's violent feuds with the Chandels of Bandelkhand (Paramardideva or Parmal) and the Gaharwars of Kanauj. It also explains how it came to pass that when in 1191-2 A.D. Muhammad Ghorl attacked India he met with no united resistance on the part of the Indian princes. (My simple question is why the Tomar / Tanwar king Anangpal who is supposed to be the last imperial Gujar Pratihar chief and his son in law Prathviraj Chauhan suddenly stops calling themselves as Gurjar king and why Chand bar dai who was his close friend made such mistakes....I really doubt whether all texts written there after including those by the foreign writers were prejudiced against Gurjars.... ) I leave it to learned viewers of this forum how they explain these links between the two communities presently known as Gujar and Rajput.....! Can i dare to repeat my initial submission with some corrections: ".......By the passage of time the influential / kuleen / imperial families of Gurjars started calling themselves " Bad Gujar" or started giving more weightage / publicity to their respective clans rather than the word “Gurjars” due to one or the other reason.......Later these imperial families of Gujars differentiated themselves from the common Gujars by adopting different surnames and thus a new community namely Rajput emerged with some more additions of subgroups from different streams........!! On the same analogy the imperial Kunbi (kisaan) and other caste groups (including Gujars) of Maharashtra made subgroups of 96 kula / clans which later started calling themselves "Maratha" ........otherwise there was no community namely "Rajput & Maratha" in the old texts....!! The origin of "Patel" surname in Gujrat can also be understood in this way...!" |
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Mar 10, 2010 22:43:19 GMT 5.5
Ur updated arguement is again incorrect....
".......By the passage of time the influential / kuleen / imperial families of Gurjars started calling themselves " Bad Gujar" or started giving more weightage / publicity to their respective clans rather than the word “Gurjars” due to one or the other reason.......Later these imperial families of Gujars differentiated themselves from the common Gujars by adopting different surnames and thus a new community namely Rajput emerged with some more additions of subgroups from different streams........!!
The bargujars are a part of Rajput people, but Gurjars and Jats also have this clan.
Rajputs didnt emerge out of the ruling clans among Gurjars. They were never kings, they supported Moghals against their overlords and were hence given the charge of revenue collection from the defeated states. They never ruled any large state (except for the petty kingdoms, Riyasats and talukas in and near rajputana). If the ruling clan of Gujjars distinguished themselves as Rajputs than How come these Royals were bowing before the Slaves, moghals and Britishers turn by turn.
One more thing: Dilip singh Judeo of Jashpur Riyasat (Who is a badgujar and is considered by all Raajputs as a BadGujar Rajput) calls himself a Gurjar and attend all the Gurjar summits regularly. Rajputs also regard bargujar clan as the most celeebrated and highly placed among all 36 clans.
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