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Post by humgujjar on Dec 2, 2014 15:27:12 GMT 5.5
Zhang Qian and The Yuezhis (Gujjars)
The Departure of Zhang Qian
In the year 138 BC, the Han emperor Wu decided to form an alliance with the Yuezhi kingdom against the Xiongnu kingdom (an enemy to the Han kingdom). However, sending a message from the Han kingdom to the Yuezhi kingdom meant that one had to travel through the enemy Xiongnu kingdom. To accomplish this, ninety-nine experienced military officers were chosen (which included Zhang Qian) that were supposed to safely pass through the Xiongnu kingdom, reach the Yuezhi emperor and deliver the message of the Emperor Wu.
The following image shows Zhang Qian's travel route (the blue boxes represent the places which Zhang Qian visited himself, while the white boxes represent the places which he learned from others):
The Return of Zhang QianZhang Qian returned back to the Han kingdom around 125 BC, and out of the ninety-nine officers he was the only one who survived the mission. He was unsuccessful in forming an alliance with the Yuezhi, as they were unwilling to risk their settlements, however, he did manage to acquire critical information for the Han emperor. Zhang Qian wrote detailed descriptions of the kingdoms he visited and learned about, the following are the descriptions of the three kingdoms relevant to our topic as written by him: The Yuezhi Kingdom
After obtaining the help of the king of Dayuan, Zhang Qian went southwest to the territory of the Yuezhi, with whom he was supposed to obtain a military alliance against the Xiongnu.
"The Great Yuezhi live some 2,000 or 3,000 li (1,000 or 1,500 kilometers) west of Dayuan, north of the Gui (Oxus) river. They are bordered to the south by Daxia (Bactria), on the west by Anxi, and on the north by Kangju (康居). They are a nation of nomads, moving place to place with their herds and their customs are like those of the Xiongnu. They have some 100,000 or 200,000 archer warriors." (adapted from Shiji, 123, Zhang Qian quote, trans. Burton Watson).
Zhang Qian also describes the origins of the Yuezhi, explaining they came from the eastern part of the Tarim Basin, a momentous explanation which has encouraged historians to connect them to the Caucasoid mummies, as well as to the Indo-European-speaking Tocharians that have been identified from precisely the same area:
"The Yuezhi originally lived in the area between the Qilian or Heavenly Mountains (Tian Shan) and Dunhuang, but after they were defeated by the Xiongnu they moved far away to the west, beyond Dayuan (Ferghana), where they attacked the people of Daxia (Bactria) and set up the court of their king on the northern bank of the Gui (Oxus) river." (Shiji, 123, Zhang Qian quote, trans. Burton Watson).
A smaller group of Yuezhi, the "Little Yuezhi", were not able to follow the exodus and reportedly found refuge among the "Qiang barbarians".
The Daxia Kingdom (Bactria)
Zhang Qian probably witnessed the last period of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, as it was being subjugated by the nomadic Yuezhi. Only small powerless chiefs remained, who were apparently vassals to the Yuezhi horde. Their civilization was urban, almost identical to the civilizations of Anxi and Dayuan, and the population was numerous.
"Daxia is situated over 2,000 li (1,000 kilometers) southwest of Dayuan (Ferghana), south of the Gui (Oxus) river. Its people cultivate the land, and have cities and houses. Their customs are like those of Dayuan. It has no great ruler but only a number of petty chiefs ruling the various cities. The people are poor in the use of arms and afraid of battle, but they are clever at commerce. After the Great Yuezhi moved west and attacked and conquered Daxia, the entire country came under their sway. The population of the country is large, numbering some 1,000,000 or more persons. The capital is Lanshi (Bactra) where all sorts of goods are bought and sold." (Shiji, 123, Zhang Qian quote, translation Burton Watson).
The Shendu Kingdom (Pakistan)
Zhang Qian also reports about the existence of Pakistan southeast of Bactria. The name Shendu (身毒) comes from the Sanskrit word "Sindhu", meaning the Indus river of Pakistan. Sindh was one of the richest regions of India at the time, ruled by Indo-Greek Kingdoms, which explains the reported cultural similarity between Bactria and India:
"Southeast of Daxia is the kingdom of Shendu (Sindh, Pakistan)... Shendu, they told me, lies several thousand li southeast of Daxia (Bactria). The people cultivate the land and live much like the people of Daxia. The region is said to be hot and damp. The inhabitants ride elephants when they go in battle. The kingdom is situated on a great river (Indus)" (Shiji, 123, Zhang Qian quote, trans. Burton Watson).
The Silk Road
Here is an image showing the popular kingdoms which existed on the ancient Silk Road (Pay special attention to the mountains on the map, it is really hard to travel through these mountains even today, and no one in India except the Gujjars travel on these mountains, even today. In fact, he Pahari language is actually the Gujjri language):
My Conclusions
From the descriptions of these kingdoms by Zhang Qian, it seems that Sindhu and Bactria had similar culture in 200 BC, which must mean that these lands must have had a strong connection with each other. Zhang Qian also mentioned that Bactria was overpowered by the Yuezhis, and the most significant clan of the Yuezhi confederation was the Kushan. I have already discussed that the Kushans were either originally Indians or included a strong Indian element as is apparent from their language and religion. The modern historians like to set Pakistan as the upper-most northern border of ancient India, even though some prominent historians have also included Afghanistan in ancient India, the majority of them will never define any part of Central-Asia as part of ancient India, which is nothing but political bias. The following image shows the extent to which Budhism was spread under Ashoka The Great (260 BC): 
Now looking at the above image and then saying that Indians "never" spread north than Pakistan or Afghanistan is just political bias and nothing else. And this is only 200 BC, if we go further back to the migrations of the Aryas, then pretty much whole of Asia and Europe was linked with ancient India. For starters, Iran, and Armenia are named after Aryas! Without getting into the debate of whether Aryas were Indian or not, one has to accept the fact that they were great "connectors" between people who are now considered "unconnected". And Aryas were Indians, the Aryan invasion is another myth spread by the European historians due to political bias towards India and Indians. And remember there is no race called "Indians", India is a racially diverse land from the very ancient times. The Relation Between the Words Kooch, Göçer, and Gujjar
The words Kooch (to migrate, or roam), Göçer (Nomad, and a tribal designation in Turkmenistan, Iran, Azerbaijan and Turkey) and Gujjar (a tribal designation of Indian warrior nomads) are related to each other. The Gujjars were ancient nomad-warriors of India who were so wide-spread and far-travelled that even today the word Gujjar is used by people of far away lands to refer to a nomad. In fact, the word "kooch" is derived from the word Gujjar (Koochar) as well. Dr Javaid Rahi is of the opinion that Gujjars originate from the Turkmen Göçers who are part of the Oghuz Turk nomads. I dont disagree with him identifying the Gujjars with the Göçers but I do disagree with him originating the Gujjars from the Turkish people. The Gujjars definitely have strong Turkish, Persian, and Central-Asian elements, but they did not originate from Turkey. They originate from the Aryas, who were primarily a cattle raising nomadic group of people.
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Dec 12, 2014 14:10:48 GMT 5.5
IMO, Origin of Gujjars must be the places surrounding the Caspian sea. From there, they migrated to south east in different groups and at different times and finally settled in their present settlements.
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aps
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Post by aps on Dec 13, 2014 17:49:35 GMT 5.5
Zhang Qian and Yuezhi (Gujjars?)In 200 BC, the Han dynasty interested in establishing commercial ties with distant lands dispatched an envoy of 99 military officers to the Yuezhi kingdom. Their mission was to create an alliance with the Yuezhi against the Xiongnu, who were hostile to the Han. Of the 99 men dispatched on the mission, Zhang Qian was the only one who survived the mission, even though he did not succeed in forming an alliance with the Yuezhi, he did bring crucial informaiton to the Han emperor, which later lead to the opening up of China's trade with the outside world for the first time. [/b] |
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Post by humgujjar on Dec 15, 2014 0:27:00 GMT 5.5
IMO, Origin of Gujjars must be the places surrounding the Caspian sea. From there, they migrated to south east in different groups and at different times and finally settled in their present settlements. So you dont believe that the Gujjars are descendants of the ancient Gurjans (mentioned in the Puranas)? I think Gujjars were one of the prominent clan of the Vedic Aryas, who moved out of Punjab and in to the Caspian Sea region in very ancient times. Later on, due to warfare or some other reasons, under the leadership of the Kushana subclan they had to move back to their homeland (India), but by then, they had retained many cultural aspects of the foreign lands (Caspian Sea) they were living in for so long. Caspian Sea could have been named after one of the great ancestors of the Gujjars known as Kashyapa. The Kushana were a branch of the Yuezhi (a name which means "Moon-Clan", exact same meaning as the "Chandavanshi" / "Lunar-Lineaged"). I cant remember where but I have read somewhere that the stories of "child Krishna" were also introduced by the Gujjars in India. And as far as I know, Shri Krishna was lunar-lineaged as well, so it makes sense if the Gujjars knew about him more than anyone else. If one listens to the Europeans, then Shri Rama and Shri Krishna, in fact, all the Aryas, originated from somewhere in Central-Asia. The Indus-Valley Civilization (the oldest Indian civilization) is according to the Europeans a "Dravidian" civilization (i.e. South-Indians, Tamils), which around 2000 BC, was destroyed by the "fair skinned Central-Asian or European nomads called Aryas". In reality though, Vedic Civilization is the continuation of the Indus-Valley-Civlization. If one looks at the importance of river name Sindhu in ancient Indian history, it alone shows a remarkable continuity, as this river has been known by this name throughout. India is derived from the Greek Indu/Indo, which is derived from the Persian Hindu, and that in turn is derived from the Sanskrit Sindhu. Sindh was the name of a country which was mainly occupied by the the river Sindhu (Greek, Indus), so it was named after the river as well. The Persians use the words Hind and Hindu in the same way, Hind was the country, and Hindu was its occupants. The words Hind and Hindu were originally used by the Persians in a geographical sense, it was later on that these terms took a religious identity under the Arabs. It is indeed strange that if the Aryas were Central-Asians, why they never mentioned their homeland anywhere in the Vedic literature, how is it possible that while they praised river Saraswati like a God, but never even bothered to praise any of their own ancestral rivers or Gods? This fact alone, is so strong that it alone is strong enough to silence this senseless and biased theory. Koch was a kingdom in North East India and Kachar or Bodo Kachar is a Warrior tribe. In 8th. Century when Gujjars were protecting India against Arab expansion in North West India (Kabul and Jabul), the Kachar Warriors as a very reliable Ally of Gujjars, were protecting North East India against any attack from Arabs from that side. The Kachar were the worshipper of Ran Chandi ( Godess Durga) like the Gujjar Emperor Vatsraj, the great grand father of Gujjar Samrat Mihir Bhoja Mahan. Chandi Garh is probably named after the temple of goddess Chandi built by either Gujjars rulers or Kachar rulers. Opinions does not matter in history. Premises or assumptions based of certain facts are must otherwise it create only confusion and does not lead anywhere. Gocer is certainly Gojar. Oghuz is pronunciated and " whe-Gurz" but Moreover Dr. Javed Rahi has done his research in Gojri language and not in history. The fact is that like Many other tribes Turks were also one of the tribe ruled by Laxmanites Gujjars ( Written as Hepthalites by Western historian). The other Gujjars gotras based of various tribes are Lodha, Jat, Turk, Hun, Barbara, Chauhan, Siluka ( for Gujjar Solanki gotra) etc. and all these were territories ruled by Gujjars were populated by these tribes. The Kushans and later Hepthalites, a branch of Kushans, ruled about 40 countries including present day India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkistan, Uzbekistan, Tazikistan, and Georgia. The turks, before being employed as slaves by Arabs were blacksmiths/carpenters for the Hignus (generally accepted as ancestors of Huns). The Hignus or the Huns were enemies of the Gujjars. In undivided Punjab the carpenters are still called as 'Turkan or Tarkhans' The Koch kingdom seems to be definately different from the Kucha kingdom (related to the Kushanas). I think the fact that the Kushanas were related to the Kucha kingdom, and that the kingdom was also known as Kuchar and Kujar, makes it very probable that the Kucha kingdom was a Gujar kingdom. Its key position on the Silk Road is also important, just like Khotan. The word Oghuz means Tribe or Arrow Tribe (clearly a warrior tribe), and is also pronounced Ghuzz. The Turkmen-Gocers are a considerable part of the Oghuz. The biggest clan among the Turkmen-Gocers is Konar-Gocer, which could be a hint of a relation with Afghanistan's Kunar province. The cultural sisimilarities between the Gujjars and Gocers that Dr. Javed Rahi points out are numerous, but one such similarity is the use of Dede or Dada in the names of our elders. |
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aps
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Post by aps on Dec 15, 2014 10:38:28 GMT 5.5
1. Kachhis is also another caste in India, numerously found in north India in and around Kannoj, the capital Of Gurjjar Pratihars for more than three centuries.
2. In Maharashtra, there is another caste called “Gajjars”. It looks similar to Gurjjars but this is a caste of Temple Builders. For example, Monal Gajjar is an Indian film actress and model, working in the South Indian film industries and she is not a Gujjar.
3. Ethnically, Oghus turks are not Gujars. Present day Georgia and Turkey still share the common borders. Georgia is Gurjistan or Gurjia of Persian annals. It is more likely that the Turks of Georgia were called as Gocer Turks and Turk gotra of Gujjars as mentioned by Dr. Javed Rahi were at some point of time the rulers of Turks or Turkistan during the Great Gujjar Kushans.
4. In Rajasthan, there are Gujar Gaud Brahmins. As per the fraud history written during the slavery period of India, they are supposed to be named so due to their original place residence which Gurjar Desh,. However, as per the Imperial Gazetteer of various districts of Gujarat, various branches of Guad Brahmins existed even in British period providing brahmanical services various castes and were called the Guada Brahmins of that particular caste to whom they were serving. The Muslim Gujjars in Rajasthan were found using the brahmanical services of their Gauda Brahmins even in British period; This fact is recorded by Dr. BN Puri as well in his research work of “The History of Gurjar Pratiharas”. These Gurjar Gauda Brahmins are related to Gujjars for providing services but they are a separate tribe and not Gurjjars.
5. “The glorious Kachars” of Brahmaputra valley were also related to Gurjjars as they were one of the most trusted and faithful alley of Gurjars Pratihars against their fight against the Arabs and they protected North east India while the Gurjjars were busy on the North West borders in Kabul and Jabul and also in Gujarat. Thee are inscriptions available in this regards. This was the time of crisis, when the Rashtrakutas, earlier in services of Gurjar Solankis, joined hands with the Arabs and thus became the bitter enemy of Gujjars for ever till their extermination by Munja, of Parmar Gotra of Gurjjars.
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Post by humgujjar on Dec 15, 2014 21:26:27 GMT 5.5
Thanks! That was really helpful. I think I am beginning to understand your point. Just because Kushans were ruling Kucha doesnt necessarily mean the Kucha people descend from Kushans, or vice versa! We need clear evidence that "directly" connects the Kucha people to the Kushanas! Well in that case, I think I have some "indirect" evidence, but I better look for some "direct" evidence, if I ever want to convince you of this theory!  (which I shall!!!). |
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Dec 19, 2014 11:41:29 GMT 5.5
There is a catch here,
In his traveloq, Hiuen-Tsang, the Chinese traveler referred to the Gurjar Kingdom of Bhinmal (Rajasthan) as Kuchilo Kingdom of Pilomalo. Therefore, it is clear that Kuchilo or kuchi or kyuchi or Kushan or Yuchi are not different from one another. Hence, It can be inferred first sighted that the words Yuchi, Kushan and Gujar are one and the same. It is just a matter of phonetic differences between different languages (read Chinese, Tocharian and Sanskrit respectively).
We need to adopt a wider prospect here, after all we are talking about one of the largest communities of Central-South Asia.
Regards
Ashok
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aps
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Post by aps on Dec 21, 2014 8:09:01 GMT 5.5
There is a catch here, Therefore, it is clear that Kuchilo or kuchi or kyuchi or Kushan or Yuchi are not different from one another. Hence, It can be inferred first sighted that the words Yuchi, Kushan and Gujar are one and the same. It is just a matter of phonetic differences between different languages (read Chinese, Tocharian and Sanskrit respectively). We need to adopt a wider prospect here, after all we are talking about one of the largest communities of Central-South Asia. Regards Ashok
Chinese annals clearly mentioned that "Yuechi" was a tribe and "Kushan" was a leading tribe of it. The other leading branch is "Bokken" which is also corroborated by one of the Kushan's Mathura inscriptions. Bokkens were rulers of Wakhan valley. The third could be Khalchayan or Kalsyan which is mentioned as Kharsalernpati ( The ruler of Kharsaler). Both the Wakhanpati and Kharsalernpati ( The rulers of Khachyan and Wakhan) came to Mathura for the foundation of Temple in Mathura. This temple was named as Agrahar, the present day Agra which in Mughal period was converted to Taj Mahal.
As per Major General Cunningham the garden of present day Taj Mahal was garden of Bhoja and Bhoja could be none other than "Gurjar Samrat Mihir Bhoja Mahan" whose residence was the fort of Gwalior.
The famous "Gujari Mahal" is known since it was the residence of Gujjar rulers for more than 1000 years and not as it is fraudulently shown by the Rajput Tanwars, who nothing more than servants of Muslim Turks and never were independent, except a brief period of 15 years. They could not independently make even a hut for themselves and how they could make Gujari Mahal? This is absolutely a fabricated story made during slavery period of the country. These Rajput Tanwars had no relation with the Gujjar Tanwar rulers of Delhi, who were one of the leading feudatories of Gujjar Pratihars.The first Rajput Tanwar was the personal servant of one of the minister of Alauddin Khilji and was caretaker of Gwalior fort which was lost in 1232AD by Gujjars to to these Turks. The last Gujjar ruler of Gwalior fort was the famous warrior Malayvarman of Pratihar gotra who is mentioned as Dalaki-wa-Malaki by the noted Ferristah in his annaals of Muslim rule in India. |
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Dec 22, 2014 12:55:52 GMT 5.5
Respected AP Bhaisahab namaskar,
First of all kalshyan is quite a contemporary clan of Gujjars and they claim descend from Chauhans of Ajmer. Besides, Connecting Kusan or Kusar to Gusar or Gujjar is not mere jugglery of words. It is evident in history that migration of Gurjars to various places earned them different titles and names. The Chinese could not call them Gurjars so they called them the Kuchi-lo. Kuchi might be a different caste or community altogether but that doesn't discardthe possibility of connection of this name (word) with the Gurjars. Please have a thorough look at the Kucha people page as described in Wikipedia:
Mongol Empire-period Uighur and Chinese transcriptions support the form Küsän/Güsän/Kuxian/Quxian rather than Küshän or Kushan (Yuanshi, chap. 12, fol 5a, 7a). (The form Kūsān is still attested in the early-modern work, Tarikh-i-Rashidi, Cf. ELIAS and ROSS, Tarikh-i-Rashidi, in the index, s. v. Kuchar and Kusan: “One MS. [of the Tarikh-i-Rashidi] reads Kus/Kusan. Both names were used for the same place, as also Kos, Kucha, Kujar, etc., and all appear to stand for the modern Kuchar of the Turki-speaking inhabitants, and Kuché of the Chinese. An earlier Chinese name, however, was Ku-sien.” Elias (1895), p. 124, n. 1.) However, transcriptions of the name 'Kushan' in Indic scripts from late Antiquity include the spelling Guṣân, and are apparently reflected in at least one Khotanese-Tibetan transcription.[3] The history of the toponyms corresponding to modern 'Kushan' and 'Kucha' remain somewhat problematic.[4]
The above connection between Kusan or Gujar becomes stronger when we consider the non-availability of 'G' in Chinese. The Chinese call it 'K' instead of 'G'.
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aps
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Post by aps on Dec 24, 2014 10:41:14 GMT 5.5
Khalchyan or Kalsyan is older gotra of Gurjjars than Chauhan. Chauhans can be a branch of Khalchyan but Khalchyan can not be a branch of Chauhan.
The word Kushan is written as Gushan, Kasano, Gusanao etc.
Yuechi stands for Gurjara, which is written as yuezhi in 4th. Century records, Kuchelo by Huen Tsang and Gurjjara in the Sanskrit inscription.
Kujula is greek is Gurjara and I have written many times that Kujula Kara Kadphasis stands for Gurjara Shri Vikaramditya, the founder of our Samvat era of 57BC.
See the following about Khachyan which is an old historical site related to Kushan which was a bracnch of Yuechi or Yuezhi. Presently also Kasana is gotra or sub branch pf Gujjars. We can say that Kasanas are Gujjars but all the Gujjars are Kasanas is wrong.
KHALCHAYAN (lat 38°17’37’’ N, long 67°58’44’’ E; = Khalchiyan, Surxondaryo prov., southern Uzbekistan), site of a settlement and palace of the nomad Yuezhi, with paintings and sculptures of the mid-1st century BCE.
The site of Khalchayan, in the valley of the Surkhan Darya (a northern tributary of the Oxus or Amu Darya), was occupied by the Yuezhi, a nomad group who migrated into this region, ancient Bactria, in the middle of the 2nd century BCE, after they were driven out of their homeland in the Gansu province of northwestern China by a rival nomad clan. Bactria comprised the region between the Hindu Kush and Hissar mountains, in what is today northern Afghanistan and the southern tracts of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. The Yuezhi, and perhaps other nomad groups also (the Sakas), overthrew the Hellenistic Greek dynasty which had ruled there since the mid-3rd century as successor to the post-Achaemenid governments of Alexander and the Seleucids (see BACTRIA i). Prior to the Greeks, Bactria was a province or satrapy of the Achaemenid empire for two centuries between the 6th to 4th century BCE. The five clans of the Yuezhi, within a century of their arrival, united under the banner of the strongest group, the Kushans (see KUSHAN DYNASTY)—the name which they carried thereafter—and its leader Heraus (Gk. Heraios). The palace at Khalchayan was built by Heraus, no doubt in proclamation of newly acquired status, probably in the middle of the 1st century BCE (the date is disputed), though the site dates from the preceding Hellenistic period.
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(which I shall!!!).