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Post by Ashok Harsana on Feb 18, 2015 12:22:02 GMT 5.5
Dear Brother, First thing First, The discussion being done on this thread is not meant for claiming superiority of knowledge. This thread will be read by thousands of interested readers in future. I am not mocking your claims at all , In fact, I am contradicting your claim so that we may come up with a certain conclusion and others may refer this thread, in any future discussion, as an authentic source of info. You might have noticed during your research that the claim to put Dadda in 4th Century will put many other contemporary rulers such as Chalukyas, Harsha and Maitrikas etc. in the same time-frame, which is practically impossible. The reference which you provided states that Chalukyas also used the same Samvat which Dadda used and hence Chalukyan rule started in around 470 AD and that of Gurjaras (Dadda-1) started in around 475 AD, while all other sources put him in 575 AD means 100 year later, (Though, you claimed there is a difference of 250 years?). The above dates seem practically impossible because Navsari Grant of Jaybhatt-3 claims Dadda-2 to be a contemporary of Harsha and Maitrikas. Your claim discards all the writings of Banbhatta, BrahmGupta and Xuen-Xang (Huien Tsang) which is again impossibly impractical. However, your claim is supported by the Gazetteer of Bombay , 1877, which I trust is an authentic source. This information holds a very high importance in Indian history because placing Gurjara Pratihars in 4th (or 5th?) Century connects them directly to Hepthals and eventually to the Kushans.  lastly, It is highly uncalled for that you wish to leave this forum but if one is offended by the genuine queries which are natural to be aroused in the mind of a genuine historian then it will be almost impossible to eradicate the mistakes or misconceptions on either part. When someone is making such an unrealistic claim then it is expected that he will patiently provide reliable sources in support of the same. Rest is your wish, you are free to come & free to go. Its Democracy you know. I personally believe that prejudice and ego of a writer should not be allowed to interfere with his knowledge because that's the reason people end up writing highly ambiguous books like Col James Tod's 'Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan' My Best Regards and Good Luck for your Book . Ashok Attached are the links you provided.... Attachments:
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Post by humgujjar on Feb 18, 2015 14:40:09 GMT 5.5
I have genuine respect for both of you brothers, we are talking about history here and we should never let it negatively effect our present! Two brothers should never turn away from each other over a difference of opinion. Nothing is absolute in history! We are always dependent on the records of ancient historians (the so called primary evidences), but even then, what guarantee is there that the ancient historians are telling us the "absolute truth" and not their "biased opinions"? So you see, as far as history is concerned, there is always room for debate!
AP Singh Saab, on behalf of all the readers of this forum, I would humbly request you to continue your stay at this forum, as your writings have given us so much valuable information, and we would highly appreciate if you can keep your contributions alive here. I would also like to humbly suggest that if my dear brother Ashok Harsana Ji have a difference of opinion with you, even after you feel like you have given your credible evidence, then the best way to go about is to just "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone has a right to share their opinion, and as a third person, I can assure you thats all Ashok Harsana Ji were doing, and that he never had any ill motives towards you or the Gujjar Birradari.
Best regards! and please let this argument go, its not even that important to the origin of the Gujjar Birradri.
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Feb 19, 2015 10:07:35 GMT 5.5
Dear Humgujjar,
What about Gujjars of Afghanistan? Did they move to Afghanistan in 9th century or earlier? I studied a report from a Pakistani's journal about Afghan Gujjars.
Please shed some light.
Regards
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Post by humgujjar on Feb 20, 2015 15:41:54 GMT 5.5
Dear Humgujjar, What about Gujjars of Afghanistan? Did they move to Afghanistan in 9th century or earlier? I studied a report from a Pakistani's journal about Afghan Gujjars. Please shed some light. Regards Ashok Harsana Ji, I dont really have any information on Afghan Gujjars in particular, but I know for a fact that the Kushana Gujjars were not only present in Afghanistan around 200 B.C. but had also captured parts of it. And by the dawn of Christian era they had control over complete Afghanistan. Which makes Gujjars one of the oldest tribes of Afghanistan. I think 900 AD is a very late date. www.pakhtunkhwa.com/html/history_of_pashtuns.htmlThis page clearly states that majority of the pashtuns originate from Kushanas, Hunas, and Gujjars. |
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aps
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Post by aps on Mar 3, 2015 19:02:10 GMT 5.5
Dear Dr. Allahrakha Sindhu,
Thank you very much for your useful information provided about the Gotras of Kashmir Gujjars, The Maitraks and Mookar (Mukar or Mukri) are both the ancient ruling dynasties of India. Anoter ruling dynasty of Kedara or Kedara Gurjjar Kushans ( also called Gedara) are found in present day Bayana of Rajasthan. Bayana is Sri-Patha and Vijay Mandal Garh of 11th. Century, where the Gurjar capital was shifted from Kannauj.
Regards.
AP Singh
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aps
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Post by aps on Mar 3, 2015 19:03:14 GMT 5.5
Dear HumGujjar,
Thank you for your brotherly affection and I reciprocate the same. All your queries related to my posts shall be answered all with heartiest warmth, either on this forum or any other public forum of your choice. Please keep propagating the right information about our great ancestors, in Urdu, which is most read language among Gujjars in Pakistan.
Regards.
AP Singh
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aps
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Posts: 76
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Post by aps on Mar 3, 2015 19:05:08 GMT 5.5
Dear Ashok,
I am not scared or offended by your genuine queries. Probably you are unable to differentiate between a genuine query and a false allegation. I hope the following clarifications of these terms would help to clear the issue.
1. Constants: The search for a constant is the ultimate goal in science.A constant is something that can't vary. Since it is not a variable, it attracts no genuine query. The constants are real facts of real world.
With reference to Elao plate, on page 242 of Indian Antiquary,1878, the fact that Srimant Dadda-II was a sovereign ruler and ruling in the year 417 of Saka Era (Saka-nripakal-atita) or 495 AD is a fact and thus a constant. It has only two constants, one is the year 417, and the other is Era which is Saka and does not nedd any assertion to find out the period and thus attracts no genuine query.
Any effort to manipulate/hide a real fact or a constant is called a fruad. Thus manipulation of the period of Srimant Dadda to 7th. Century is one of the biggest fraud of Indian history.
Srimant Dadda-I, being the grandfather of Srimant Dadda-II can be placed sometime between 395 AD to 420 AD, accordingly. In fact Dadda is not a name in Gojri language, it means grandfather. Unfortunately the inscriptions does not refer to the actual names of the rulers.
2. Variables: A variable, as opposed to a constant, is simply anything that can vary.
3. Premises/Assertions: The functions of at least one constants and one variable. Conclusions are assertions which should have at least one premise supporting it but may not be acceptable readily by the readers. The readers may raise their genuine queries if not satisfied by the conclusion of the researcher. The inscription having only the year but no specific era need assertions. In that case the assertions/premises are made based upon other available historical evidences, which are variables, to find out the actual era, the missing factor of the records. These evidences can be disputed or genuine queries may be raised.
4. Opinions: These are claims based simply on intuition, intelligence and observation of the re-searchers. Depending upon the reputation of the researcher, these may be catagorised as realistic/authentic or un-realistic claims.
5. Deliberate cheating/Frauds : Deliberately manipulating/hiding of any information and consequently drawing false conclusions are called frauds. The propagation of these frauds whether by deliberate means or by ignorance in un-ethical. The so called scholars like RC Mazumdar falls in this catagory, who were responsible for deliberate insertions of many serious bugs in Indian history, by manipualtions and frauds. Atleast at one place, I also found Bhandarkar also getting involved in deliberate manipulation of information , while calling Harishchandar Brahmin as the ancestor of Gurjar Pratihars, who in fact, as per the records,was Bhat ( Bard) of them and not the ancestor.
Good luck and good bye.
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Mar 4, 2015 10:24:34 GMT 5.5
Dear AP Bhaisahab,
I concur with your opinion. Constants can never be challenged. BUT (Big but for the following genuine queries
1. Why the historians did this to our history?
2. What made all other historians repeat the same story and assign the same period to Dadda-2?
3. What about their contemporary rulers (specifically Chalukyas)?
The above problems are so evident that they come to everyone's mind every time they try to make up their mind and start thinking on your lines. However, IF this establishes itself as a fact in history then this can be awarded as the biggest Fraud in the ancient history of India.
I hope we will soon come up with something solid which enables us to prove our point and bring it to the notice of all the renowned historians.
Best Regards
Ashok
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Post by Slow_Learner on Mar 4, 2015 11:29:52 GMT 5.5
Dear APS JI, Ashok Harsana Ji, Hun Gujjar Ji, (In order of birth year)
I have few doubts and I need an explanation:
1. My Gotra is Rathour. My village is situated in District Saharanpur and around 12 village are occupied by rathours in my area.
Some people used to say that our Gotra is Rathi and not Rathour. People used to say that Rathour is a Rajput Gotra so It can't be used by gurjars. But likewise one can argue that rathi is also used by Jaats. Which one of them is real ? Rathour or Rathi?
2. Rathours are generally found in Rajasthan. How comes 12 village of District saharanpur using the same surname. Is their any history associated with this?
3. With all respect, May I know more about APS DADA (1958) and humgujjar.
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aps
Regular Member
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Post by aps on Mar 4, 2015 12:09:35 GMT 5.5
Dear AP Bhaisahab, I concur with your opinion. Constants can never be challenged. BUT (Big but for the following genuine queries 1. Why the historians did this to our history? 2. What made all other historians repeat the same story and assign the same period to Dadda-2? 3. What about their contemporary rulers (specifically Chalukyas)? The above problems are so evident that they come to everyone's mind every time they try to make up their mind and start thinking on your lines. However, IF this establishes itself as a fact in history then this can be awarded as the biggest Fraud in the ancient history of India. I hope we will soon come up with something solid which enables us to prove our point and bring it to the notice of all the renowned historians. Best Regards Ashok Dear Ashok, All the points raised by your need complete research. The following are the sequence of events and not isolated. 1. 1857:the first war of Independence. 2. 1871: The Gujjars were declared a criminal tribe. 3. In 1878, four of Dadda's inscriptions having proper dates were declared as spurious. 4. Based on that RC Mazumdar fabricated history ( see Department of letters Vol X). Rest of the questions, you may have to find yourself or ask the fabricators/manipulators or find some honest scholars to read who did not accept their views. Regards. Best of luck and Goodbuy. |
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