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Post by CHAUHAN on Aug 24, 2010 2:21:45 GMT 5.5
dear ashok bro...
i respect every religion n also a strong supporter of hindu muslim unity in india specially because they r our brother they played an important role to get freedom more dan hindu castes like baniya brahmans thakurs n all such friends of britishers n also because a big part of our biradri follow islam....but all v know that gurjars follow a special culture from the kushans age v nvr married our relatives like cousines or nephew...here m nt talking about hinduism because there are sevrel examples of such marriages in hindus also in mahabharat age n also in south india also today they do. so i got hyper a bit when i read the reply of malik brother.. they gave a suggestion, at least we dont expact this from gujjar brothers...and second thing was partition ashok brother hum sbhi ko is bat ka dukh h k hmari biradi ka aadha hissa sarhad k us par rhta h n presently v are totally apart from each other n thats why it is said that partition was totally a wrong decision taken by some 20% narrow minded people for thier own benifits...without knowing the wishes of 80% hindus n muslims.
dear mohammad malik...
first of all i apologize if i hurt u or any muslim broder at any point of time. i m nt talkin abt all muslim community bt at least i can expect frm u as u belong to gujjar biradri ...i think u kno dat our people followed a specific culture for centurees...and when islam came in india a big part of our caste went into islam n they started to follow the islamic rules but here in india in some area like kairana (village of rana ali hasan chauhan is also situated here) muslim gujjars still follow thier traditional rules even they avoid gotras in marrisges,,,, bro here m nt stating at all that they are not muslim completely but i wanna show you that this is the great gujjar biradri its our nature v dont leave easily our traditions either v follow hinduism or islam...nyways leave it.
in present conditions...jyadatar gujjar bhai chahte h k hindu nd muslim gujjar jyada se jyada kareeb ho jae aur isiliye bahut bar aisi koshise b ki gayi ki intermarriages possibles ho ske nd only one reason behind this was to get united.but as u told that islam doesn't allow this..its ok.
dear malik bhai ye meri dili khawaish h k ek hindu aur ek muslim gujjar k beech utni hi dooriya rhe jitni do hindu gujjaro ya do muslim gujjaro k beech ho usse jyada nhi.reality sbhi jante h k gujjarism is nt just a cast it is a culture in itself n we need nothing much..m apko btau yaha india me sbhi muslimo ko musalman hi bola jata h koi unki caste nhi pahchan pata..but muslim gujjaro ko muslaman na bolke gujjar hi bola jata h because wo asaani se pahchane jate h...its just because of our unique culture n living style...kashmir ka muslim gujjar b wo hi ragni sunta h jo rajasthan ya haryana ka nd maharastra k gujjar b gujri language hi bolte paye jate h aur kashmir ya haryana k b.
malik bhai meri b bahut tamanna h pakistan me jakar apni biradri me ghumne ki i want to see all places where gujjars live there...but i just want to know from u dat wht a common pakistani gujjars think abt thier indian gujjar bros..how they take us plz don't mind asking frankly,,,today its a reality that the relations of both govts r nt much better..bt still i belive these r the relations of goverments nt of common people..so plz give a lot of information.
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Post by gyanchaudhary on Sept 6, 2010 16:23:00 GMT 5.5
why not
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 14, 2010 13:51:13 GMT 5.5
Historically, the Gujjars had only two Sarva-Khap Panchayats ( Confederations of various Gujjar Gotras) and that had created the best of History.
1. The first Khap Panchayat was held when various Gujjars Gotras fought with Alexender independtly and divided and thus were defeated and retired to the area what is called as Chinese Turkestan today. About a century later mainly five Gujjars Gotras comprising of Kasana, Khatana, Chechi, Bokkan and probably Nagaras and Bhati ( The rulers of Nagarhar and Bhota region ( Tibet and Bhutan together was called Bhota country ruled by Bhatti Gujjars formed a confederation and the result was the largest Gujjar Kushan Empire of the world. Peshawar was the main capital of the Empire and thus the rulers were called Purshwars (or Poswal,) which means in Persian as Elephant Mounted Warriors. Gazni was ruled by the Gazgahiya subclan of Gujjars, having another unit of Elephant Mounted Warriors. Samarkand in Uzbekistan was the summer capital of Gujjar Kushans and Mathura was the winter capital. Kaniska was the greatest Emperor of the Gujjar Empire and belong to Kasana gotra of Gujjars but scholars believe that Kaniska belonged to Khatana subclan of Gujjars.
The Namad Gujjars living in part of present day India, Pakistan and Afghanistan reminds us even today, the shifting of these capitals among Peshawar, Mathura and Samarkand dependind upon the climatic conditions.
2. The second Sarvapkap Panchayat was held to repulse the invading Arabs invited by their new found ally, the Rsahtrakuts, in the Aboo mountains on the border of f present day Gujerat and Rajasthan.. Nagda ( present day Udaipur) was ruled by Nagara Gujjars that time and Udai Singh Nagari was the last Gujjar ruler of Udaipur who advanced to Khanwa along with 12000 of his cavaliers to take battle with Babar and sacrificed his life there and Aboo mountain was the part of the Nagda kingdom of Nagari Gujjars.
This Sarvakhap Panchayat also resulted in forming of largest Empire of the worrld that time in the leadership of Nagabhatta-I, the Great. The Borders of the Empire was Burma on east, Maharashtra and Kartataka in the south, Kabul and Gazni ( including both the places as part of Empire) in the North and Nortwest.
Gurjara Samrat Mihir Bhoja Mahan (of Pratihar clan of Gujjars) was the Greatest Emperor of this Gujjar Empire. The biggest setback during his time was Kabul was lost in 870 AD but he blocked the expansion of Arab Empire then and there. It was only in 899AD during the reign of his son Mahendra Pal, Kabul was taken back by two princes of this Empire who could be none other than Prince Mahipal (also known as Kshitipala) and Bhoja-II.
Hence the History is witness of the Gujjars Sarvakhap Panchayats which could take place only in National Crisis.
The other historicals records of Gujjar uprising was 1857 but the Britishers were well educated and well trained in all kind of war tactics and never allowed the Gujjars from all over India to unite and as a result the First War of Independence was defeated.
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Sept 14, 2010 15:26:39 GMT 5.5
various Gujjars Gotras fought with Alexender independtly and divided and thus were defeated and retired to the area what is called as Chinese Turkestan today. About a century later mainly five Gujjars Gotras comprising of Kasana, Khatana, Chechi, Bokkan and probably Nagaras and Bhati ( The rulers of Nagarhar and Bhota region ( Tibet and Bhutan together was called Bhota country ruled by Bhatti Gujjars formed a confederation and the result was the largest Gujjar Kushan Empire of the world.
Hello Bhaisaab, This seems to be the solution of the problems related to the connection and migration of Gujjars to China. Amazing post Thanks and Regards |
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 16, 2010 12:42:10 GMT 5.5
Dear Ashok,
The area what is called as Chinese Turkestan today was under control of Gujjars even before the attack of Alexender.
I have historical evidences available with me that Khatanas and Solanki subclan of Gujjars fought bravely with Alexender and Alexender found it impossible to advance into their territories.It was the traitor Porus, who is wronglyglorified in Indian history, who helped Alexender with 5000 of his troops and more importantly valuable and strategic inside information which proved decisive in the defeat of these valiant Gujjar subclans. Later these Gujjar subclans had to retire to the area what is called as chinese Turkestan today. Here these Gujjars subclan must have been given protection by other Gujjar rulers like Khalshyan, Karhana, Chokkars etc. who were already ruler of those areas and in the absence of this Gujjar support this settlement would not have been possible.
Porus was most likely a Shaka and certainly not a Gujjar as written by many historians. I have two reasons to firmly believe that Porus was not a Gujjar.
1. Firstly, none of the Gujjar subclan had ever supported an external enemy against their own people which Porus did. Though there are many instances when Gujjars fought among themselves for supremacy over each other.
2. Secondly, Alexender did not have a son and successor to rule the vassals of his father. In fact his only son was too young to rule at the time of his death. As a result Porus and others, the former vassals of alexender became independent. That is the reason when at a later date, about a century later, these various Gujjar subclan united and determined to conquer the large territories of central Asia and including that of their own ( The areas formerly by Gujjars like Khottan and Siluka ), these areas were found to be ruled by Shakas. These Shakas were none else than the descendents of Porus, the traitor and thus were defeated by the Gujjars and were made vassals. The new title of these Shaka vassals was given Khastrapa, which is commonly (but wrongly) is believed to the old word "Khastriya" mentioned in Vedas.
3. In India ( undivided ) our history is mostly written by invaders or by their Indian Naukars, Sepoys or coolies and hence almost the whole history of India is fabricated and is all about these traitors, glorified by their masters. It was a well thought out strategy and planning by these foreign invaders to kill the great history of our great country to rule successfully with the help of these Naukars, sepoy and coolies. Many of these Naukars, Sepoys and Coolies now call themselves as forward castes since they have propsered very well during the slavery period of the country.
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Sept 16, 2010 17:45:42 GMT 5.5
But I have read somewhere that Porus was a Puruvanshi kshatriya and he was supported by johiya Gujjars in his campaign against Alexander the Great. There is a possibility that (like PrithviRaj) Porus became hostile to Alexander during his (Alexander's) tough times (campaigns to pamir region), thats why Alexander on his way back had to fight Porus out. Porus was replaced with another feudatory King named Sandroctus (chandragupta). Pls see the map hubpages.com/hub/Invasion-of-India-by-AlexanderOne more thing is there, Khatanas were the offshoots of Kushans (The word Kushan comes from the word Gujar only, pls note the kingdom of Kucha on the following link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KuchaIt says: According to the Book of Han, Kucha was the largest of the 'Thirty-six kingdoms of the Western Regions,' with a population of 81,317, including 21,076 persons able to bear arms.[1]
Transcriptions of the Han or the Tang also infer an original form Küchï, (Kǖsan during the Mongol and Ming periods). The form Kūsān is also attested by the Tarikh-i-Rashidi, Cf. ELIAS and ROSS, Tarikh-i-Rashidi, in the index, s. v. Kuchar and Kusan.
“One MS. [of the Tarikh-i-Rashidi] reads Kus/Kusan. Both names were used for the same place, as also Kos, Kucha, Kujar, etc., and all appear to stand for the modern Kuchar of the Turki-speaking inhabitants, and Kuché of the Chinese. An earlier Chinese name, however, was Ku-sien.” Elias (1895), p.124, n. 1.
Kucha was strongly influenced by Indian and Scythian thought, and Indian kings are said to have reigned there. Christopher Beckwith identifies the king of Gu-zan of the Li yul lung-btsan-pa or ‘Prophecy of the Li Country’ who went on campaign with Kanishka in the company of the king of Kucha (Kūči, Kūčā, Kushâ, Küsän). See Beckwith (1987), p. 50, and n. 66. However, Chinese transcriptions are explicitly in favour of the form Küsän/Güsän/Kuxian/Quxian and not Küshän or Kushan (Yuanshi, chap. 12, fol 5a, 7a). It clearly means that the word kushan is derived from kucha (which is again derived from the word Gujar > Gujar > Guza or Gucha), We have kuch Bihar in bengal and Kuchh in Gujarat named after the Kucha people, and we very well know about kuchi people of Afghanistan. All these instances are well connected to Gujjars. That means Kucha is the original name for Kushans and they were also called Chechi or yuchi (Chinese pronunciation for Gujar). Khatanas were the sect of Kushans which went eastward till Khotan , Pls read below en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Khotanit Says:
According to legend, the foundation of Khotan occurred when Kushtana, said to be a son of the Kushan emperor in the 3rd century.
However, it is likely to have existed much earlier than this as the Yuezhi (known later as the Kushans) had been trading the famous nephrite jade from the region to China for some centuries prior to this. That Simply means that Khatanas is a later term, as compared to kushan or Chechi. In My opinion there were mainly 6 or 7 Gujjar tribe ruling north india in 3rd century BC: Namely: Chechi, gorsi (derived from Gurjar), barkat, Johiya (yodheya, the true descendants of Lord krisna), Chhokkars & malvas or Mavais, (malvas, arjunenyas, janjuas and Bhatis. These four were jointly called malvas"). Tell me if it is correct? |
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 17, 2010 12:07:37 GMT 5.5
There is a possibility that (like PrithviRaj) Porus became hostile to Alexander during his (Alexander's) tough times (campaigns to pamir region), The case of Prithviraj Chauhan was entirely different. His fahter Someshwar was married to a Chedi princess who were vassals of his maternal grandfather Sidhha Raj Jai Singh Solanki, the most powerful of all Gujjar rulers of that time. Prtihvi Raj Chauhan and Hari Raj Chauhan ( The great ancestor of Rana Ali Hasan Chauhan, the writer of "The Short History of Gujjars" were born in Gujerat Patan. Prithvi Raj Chauhan was a child when he was made the ruler of Gujjar Chauhan kingdom and all the decisions were taken by his mother in association with his maternal grandfather, who was a Chedi ruler and thus a non-Gujjar tribe. His maternal grandfather alienated the young great Gujjar Chauhan prince from the other rulers of Gujjar tribe. Initially only the Dahimas were loyal to him since he was married to Dahima princess of Bayana. Most of his exploits against Gujjars like Nagara Gujjars, Pratihar Gujjars and Bhadana Gujjars can mainly be attributed to his brother -in- laws, the Dahimas, Khande Rao, Kaimas and Pundir. As Prithvi Raj Chauhan matured to be great warrior he started taking his own decisions and challenged Ghori, who must have been demanding the hand of Sanyogita. It is logical also since Ghori has defeated the overlords of Gahadwals of Kannauj, who were made Governors of Kannauj by the Gaznavis. In the first battle the Ghori was severely defeated but is the second battle even his Dahima relatives were alienated and he was badly routed by the invading armies of Ghori. None of his direct legal descendent survived and his younger brother Hariraj was made new ruler of Ajmer since Delhi was already lost. That time Kutibudin Aibak appointed one Gola (named Gopal and not legitimate son of the last Gujjar Emperor to rule the kingdom ) of Prithvi Raj Chauhan as Governor of Ranthambore. In Indian history this illegitimate son of the last Gujjar Chauhan Emperor was taken as the legal heir of the Emperor of India and the whole Glorious History of Gujjar Chauhans were thus ascribed by these new governors of invaders. |
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 21, 2010 12:21:29 GMT 5.5
Khatanas were the offshoots of Kushans (The word Kushan comes from the word Gujar only, pls note the kingdom of Kucha on the following link:
The Emperor Vijay Singh Khotana who married the daughter of the Emperor of China belonged to Khatana gotra of Gujjars. Silk history of India was founded when his wife, the cheinese princess brought some silk worm along with her to the Gujjar kingdom of Khatanas.
Kushan or Kasana gotra is not at all derivative of the word Gujjar. Gujjar is tribe and kasana is a subclan of it. The Gujjars are said to be descendents of lord Rama and Kushana or Kasana is named after Kusha, the younger son of lord Rama. British scholars, when realised their mistake about the real history of India, comfirmed this fact in Bombay Gazeteer of India.
Please refer to the contemporary historical records of Kushana, Khatana , Nagara or Bokkan Gujjar rulers. the word Gujjar is mentioned separately as Gusar or Gujar in Kharoshti language , which is translated as the "the People born in high family". The same status for Gujjar as the peole born in High families or highest caste continued till 16th. century when the country was enslaved by the Mughals and later by the Britishers with the help od some local cowardly traitors who in turn prospered very well during this period and gained status. |
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Post by Ashok Harsana on Sept 21, 2010 20:09:35 GMT 5.5
Kushan or Kasana gotra is not at all derivative of the word Gujjar. Gujjar is tribe and kasana is a subclan of it. The Gujjars are said to be descendents of lord Rama and Kushana or Kasana is named after Kusha, the younger son of lord Rama Hellp AP Bhaisaab, This is a very crucial point of Gurjar history and we need thorough research for the same. Please note a few points below to understand this: 1. According to 50% versions of Ramayana, Rama and Site had only one son named Luv. Even in the other 50% versions (including Valmiki's version) the writers claimed that this couple had only one son and once when Sita went for bathing Luv disappeared. To avoid the anger of his spouse Rama created another boy with 100% similar looks from a Kusha (sanskrit word for "whit (Eng) or Tinka (hindi)). Luv also came back after sometime and Now Rama had two sons, Luv & Kusha.This story simply implies that Rama had only one natural son (and according to the other 50% versions, the other son was either adopted or found by them in jungle). 2. The word Kusan is simply derived from the Kusar or Kusa or kucha(Chinese name) people. And the word Kusa is a derivation of the word Gusar or Gujar. Please see the Link Below: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KuchaIt says: Kucha was strongly influenced by Indian and Scythian thought, and Indian kings are said to have reigned there. Christopher Beckwith identifies the king of Gu-zan of the Li yul lung-btsan-pa or ‘Prophecy of the Li Country’ who went on campaign with Kanishka in the company of the king of Kucha (Kūči, Kūčā, Kushâ, Küsän)3. We may also notice that Gujjars are known as kuchi, kusar or Kujar till date. Making the perception stronger that Kusan is a corruption of the name Gujar only. Please see the Link Below: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kucha4. The word kush stands for Mountain, region or side in Sycthian, Saka, Persian and Arabic, IT also stands for plowshare in Sanskrit (means the starting point of the land of hind). In Iranian language it means Hindu killer. It is also claimed that it comes from the Persian word Kushthar or Kushthan which means to slaughter. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush5. Kushans along with five other Gujjar tribes were called yuchee which is again a Chinese name for the word Gujar. (Heun-xang called them Kyuhcilo or Kuchilo). 6. It is also believed that Gujars were didvied into 5 main clans in starting. Then came the rest other clans. That means that all other subclans were offshoots of the main five clans. These are Source (very good source) www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/Docs/Pakistan/Tribes/Gujar.pdfSee page No. 314 in this book: books.google.com/books?id=1QmrSwFYe60C&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=chechi,+gorsi+khatana+kasana&source=bl&ots=qK0631k95c&sig=pMDH7J-go9mr36noqsk-q0TuW80&hl=en&ei=6LyYTLyxLIqycbGr9YEP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=chechi%2C%20gorsi%20khatana%20kasana&f=false It can be clearly derived from the info in these two links that Gujars had five main gotras namely: Chechi, Kasana, khatana, Gorsi and barkat. If we move backwards we will have only 2 1/2 gotras (two and a half) Gorsi, Chechi and Barkat (considered half). All the original clans were named due to the different pronunciation of the word Gujar. it is not that these clans were named after a place or person. These clans were naturally formed. (the pronunciation plays a very important role in the formation of clans of any caste, for instance: Nowadays Gurjars are called as Gujjars, Gozars, Gujars, Gurjars aand Gochar etc.) First of all we come to Chechi (the main gotra which is also called Naikadi meaning origin of all). It a Chinese pronunciation of the word Gujar and is directly related to the word Yuchi. Gorsi is a simply corruption of the word Gorjar or Gujar. After that we come to Khatana which is a branch of Kusans which ruled kushtana province. Bargat is a different clan which was considered as a half gotra. (historian claim that they were given the status of half because of their mother being from a non-gujjar tribe. So all these point implies that the fifth tribe (Kasana) is also another name for the word Gujar only. Keep Researching Regards |
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Post by AP Singh on Sept 22, 2010 11:57:52 GMT 5.5
The work Kushana or Kasana is always reffered separately than the word "Gujar or Gusar "which was translated as" The people born in high families". In fact there can not be any translation for the word Gujar since it was used for a particular tribe but by the manner of usage at number of places in Kharoshti inscriptions of Gujjar Kushan Emperors, the above mentioned meaning of the word Gujar was interpreted by the scholars.
My purpose here is not to respond to all issues made controversial deliberately like how many sons Lord Rama had but to clarify the relations of lord Rama with Gujjars as Gujjars are descendents of lord Rama is not only written in many historical records and inscriptions but the fact is reflected by their present day culture and worshipping of lord Chaturbhuja temple at Nagda (present day Udaipur) by the Gujjar themselves.
The fact is Gujjars worship their own ancestors by themselves like all the priests in God DevNarayan temple are Gujjars. The statue of Lord Ram when installed in temple will have four arms, that is written in one of the Puran, and the statue at Nagada and Gwalior at the temples built by Nagara Gujjars belong to lord Rama.
Muslim Gujjars also worship their own ancestors called as "Peers" and many of "Peers " are worshipped by all the Gujjars irrespective of their religion, like Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs.
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